Guns And Poses: Democrats In Concert

[Vegas]

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=259974513164131

Gun Control: Democrats are noticeably silent as freshman Sen. James Webb packs heat and leaves an aide literally holding the bag. So why should their constituents not have the same right to self-defense?

Webb was selected to run against Republican George Allen last year in part because of his support of the Second Amendment. Webb sees the right to keep and bear arms as an individual right. It was part of the Democrats' plan not only to recapture the Senate but to make inroads into red-state America.

Webb represents Virginia, a right-to-carry (RTC) state that lets residents carry concealed weapons. The District of Columbia doesn't allow even the private ownership of guns, much less their concealment. And Capitol grounds are certainly off-limits.

Reports of the incident involving Webb's aide are sketchy and conflicting. But we know that Phillip Thompson was arrested and spent his birthday in custody for trying to enter the Russell Senate Office Building, where Webb's office is located, with a bag carrying Webb's loaded gun and two fully loaded magazines.

We can't imagine the uproar if he had been an aide to a GOP senator. No doubt we'd have been bombarded with file footage of Columbine and every other mass shooting in memory. Instead we have stony silence from those who were happy to exploit Webb's position on the Second Amendment to get him elected.

Either they support his position or they don't. If not, where's the condemnation?

This incident comes just after a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit (in Parker v. District of Columbia) striking down the district's draconian ban on the private ownership of firearms as a violation of the Second Amendment. The court ruled that its high placement in the Bill of Rights makes the right to keep and bear arms, along with speech, religion, etc., an individual right.

Webb has a firearm, he says, for protection. Gun-control advocates argue that letting people carry guns encourages their reckless use. They ignore incidents such as last month's Trolley Square mall shooting in Utah, where an off-duty police officer carrying a concealed weapon saved untold numbers of lives by killing a disturbed young man from war-torn Bosnia who had entered the mall and started shooting, killing five. Utah is one of 40 RTC states.

One of the great untold stories is how armed private citizens, exercising their constitutional right to self-defense, have repeatedly saved their lives and others' and have helped reduce violent crime.

Since 1991, according to NRAILA.org, 23 states have adopted RTC laws. In the same period, the number of privately owned firearms has risen by nearly 70 million and violent crime is down 38%. In 2005, RTC states had, on average, a 22% lower violent crime rate, a 30% lower murder rate, a 46% lower robbery rate and a 12% lower aggravated-assault rate.

Researchers John Lott and David Mustard have found that 'allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes, and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states that did not have right-to-carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly.'

The problem is not with Sen. Webb feeling the need to protect himself. It is with those who feel that citizens in the District of Columbia, or anywhere else, should not have the right or the ability to defend themselves. That is truly criminal.

[pnkpanther]

eh, he's from VA

[pnkpanther]

John Lott's study was funded by firearms industry and there have been many questions brought up both in his methodoly and his creditablity

Lott uses ancetodal stories and stretches cause/effect ratio

[Vegas]

John Lott's study was funded by firearms industry and there have been many questions brought up both in his methodoly and his creditablity

Lott uses ancetodal stories and stretches cause/effect ratio

What do you think of the FBI statistics on gun ownership/use by private citizens?

[pnkpanther]

Double Barreled Double Standards
For years, John Lott has provided a vital scholarly basis to the pro-gun movement. But now his research and his integrity are drawing heavy fire.

Chris Mooney
October 13 , 2003

If economist John R. Lott didn't exist, pro-gun advocates would have had to invent him. Probably the most visible scholarly figure in the U.S. gun debate, Lott's densely statistical work has given an immense boost to the arguments of the National Rifle Association. Lott's 1998 book More Guns, Less Crime -- which extolled the virtues of firearms for self-defense and has sold some 100,000 copies in two editions, quite an accomplishment for an academic book -- has served as a Bible for proponents of "right to carry" laws (also known as "shall issue" laws), which make it easier for citizens to carry concealed weapons. Were Lott to be discredited, an entire branch of pro-gun advocacy could lose its chief social scientific basis.

That may be happening. Earlier this year, Lott found himself facing serious criticism of his professional ethics. Pressed by critics, he failed to produce evidence of the existence of a survey -- which supposedly found that "98 percent of the time that people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack" -- that he claimed to have conducted in the second edition of "More Guns, Less Crime". Lott then made matters even worse by posing as a former student, "Mary Rosh," and using the alias to attack his critics and defend his work online. When an Internet blogger exposed the ruse, the scientific community was outraged. Lott had created a "false identity for a scholar," charged Science editor-in-chief Donald Kennedy. "In most circles, this goes down as fraud."

Lott's recent baggage makes him an impeachable witness in the push to pass state-level right to carry laws, and raises questions about his broader body of work. Kennedy and others have even likened Lott to Michael Bellesiles, the Emory University historian who could not produce the data at the heart of his award-winning 2000 book "Arming America", which had seemed to undermine the notion that there was widespread gun ownership and usage in colonial America. But while Bellesiles resigned after a university panel challenged his credibility, thus far Lott has escaped a similar fate. An academic rolling stone, Lott has held research positions at the University of Chicago and Yale law schools, but currently works at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), a Washington think tank much smiled upon by the Bush administration. AEI will not say whether it will investigate its in-house guns expert; by e-mail, AEI president Christopher DeMuth declined to comment on the possibility.

Lott's defenders rightly point out that the missing survey -- which was completely lost in a computer crash, Lott says -- isn't central to the argument of "More Guns, Less Crime". But as Harvard economist David Hemenway wrote in a recent critique of Lott's latest book, "The Bias Against Guns", one must have "faith in Lott's integrity" before accepting his statistical results. That is because in the dauntingly complex subfield of econometrics, statistical manipulation is a constant concern. In a recent attempt to rescue his beleaguered "More Guns, Less Crime" hypothesis from criticism, Lott has been caught massaging his data to favor his argument. In subsequent exchanges with Mother Jones, he changed his story several times about a key data table that was misleadingly labeled -- and then surreptitiously amended -- on his website. Nevertheless, most pro-gun scholars and political conservatives have yet to call Lott to account.

not the whole article...got cut off

[pnkpanther]

What do you think of the FBI statistics on gun ownership/use by private citizens?

can you prove causation


red states have higher divorce rates, the natrual assumption then is that state has more republicans, so being republican means you're more likely to get divorced, no?

[Vegas]

can you prove causation


red states have higher divorce rates, the natrual assumption then is that state has more republicans, so being republican means you're more likely to get divorced, no?

Let's look specifically at one of my favorites. How many times a day in the USA do you think a private citizen uses a gun to stop a crime?

[pnkpanther]

Let's look specifically at one of my favorites. How many times a day in the USA do you think a private citizen uses a gun to stop a crime?


80% of all statistics are made up

[pnkpanther]

we could go back and forth all day comparing gun stats

both "proving" our point

[Jiddy78]

80% of all statistics are made up

Figures lie. Liars figure.

[Vegas]

we could go back and forth all day comparing gun stats

both "proving" our point

True, but I don't think the FBI makes up their numbers. And armed citizens use guns to stop crimes over 900 times a day in the USA.

[Iron Jaw]

can you prove causation


red states have higher divorce rates, the natrual assumption then is that state has more republicans, so being republican means you're more likely to get divorced, no?


One would have to list the registered affiliation of each person who is divorced to figure that out. After all, most states have a large number from both major political parties. I mean, California, a blue state for the time being, has more Republicans than any state in the entire United States.;)

But of course, journalists and politicians use the red-blue method to satisfy their own political beliefs and whims.

[pnkpanther]

True, but I don't think the FBI makes up their numbers. And armed citizens use guns to stop crimes over 900 times a day in the USA.

i can use FBI stat's that would favor gun control

i've shared my view, i wont have a gun in my house, i have no problems if others chose to. I think they're a paranoid, but hey...

But I do think ALL guns should be registered, and if your kid gets access to a gun, the gun owner should be held ACCOUNTABLE as well.


here's a link to FBI crime stats gun stats

I see that stat no where on here...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

[Tom Joad]

John Lott's study was funded by firearms industry and there have been many questions brought up both in his methodoly and his creditablity

Lott uses ancetodal stories and stretches cause/effect ratio

I read his book. It's certainly interesting. If anything, he shows that guns do help certain people, like women. But, IIRC, they were no help for men.

[swordfish]

Dad took my gun away when he learned I could kill a man with my bare hands.

Gun laws are simple erosion of the 2nd amendment. The politicians cite criminals as the need for more laws. The simple fact is that "criminals" do not care about the law. Law-abiding citizens do care about the law and still get punished. I know if I was a criminal I would think twice about robbing grandma if she had a .45 in her purse. We can also blame lawyers. Lawsuits over getting shot while committing criminal acts are preposterous.

[Tom Joad]

We can also blame lawyers. Lawsuits over getting shot while committing criminal acts are preposterous.

Don't blame the lawyers, they're just doing their job. How about blaming the legislators who don't have laws on the books that prevent such lawsuits?

[swordfish]

Defending lawyers? :cool:

[Tom Joad]

Defending lawyers? :cool:

I'm not a lawyer nor am I defending them. I just think they're not to blame in this instance.

[Iron Jaw]

i can use FBI stat's that would favor gun control

i've shared my view, i wont have a gun in my house, i have no problems if others chose to. I think they're a paranoid, but hey...

But I do think ALL guns should be registered, and if your kid gets access to a gun, the gun owner should be held ACCOUNTABLE as well.


here's a link to FBI crime stats gun stats

I see that stat no where on here...


Of course, stats on crime prevention as a result of firearms cannot be accurately recorded, as too many go unreported.

I have several firearms, rifles and pistols. The rifles are primarily used for hunting and the pistols for home defense, road defense - and competitive shooting. I'm a federal officer and almost always have my service issued firearm handy, on or off-duty. I teach my wife and kids how, when and why to shoot. My family knows what firearms can do and what they are designed for. All are expert shots - and all have respect for the firearms.

But most importantly, I teach my kids the value of human life and how to be honest, decent citizens. And for that reason, despite having good shooting skills, I have absolutely no fear they will do something stupid or criminal with a firearm.

At home, I usually keep the firearms locked in a large safe, but always have one out, ready for use. The wife and kids know how to access it in an emergency situation. If other people's kids are in the home, I (or the wife) will lock the defense firearm with the remainder of the guns.

Training, and good morals are the key to successfully owning a firearm.

[pnkpanther]

Of course, stats on crime prevention as a result of firearms cannot be accurately recorded, as too many go unreported.

I have several firearms, rifles and pistols. The rifles are primarily used for hunting and the pistols for home defense, road defense - and competitive shooting. I'm a federal officer and almost always have my service issued firearm handy, on or off-duty. I teach my wife and kids how, when and why to shoot. My family knows what firearms can do and what they are designed for. All are expert shots - and all have respect for the firearms.

But most importantly, I teach my kids the value of human life and how to be honest, decent citizens. And for that reason, despite having good shooting skills, I have absolutely no fear they will do something stupid or criminal with a firearm.

At home, I usually keep the firearms locked in a large safe, but always have one out, ready for use. The wife and kids know how to access it in an emergency situation. If other people's kids are in the home, I (or the wife) will lock the defense firearm with the remainder of the guns.

Training, and good morals are the key to successfully owning a firearm.

I agree, but not every gun owner is as responsible as you are...

I dont want to get rid of guns, just regulated.

[Vegas]

I agree, but not every gun owner is as responsible as you are...

I dont want to get rid of guns, just regulated.

You want people to be responsible and regulate their own households or you want the government to regulate?

[pnkpanther]

You want people to be responsible and regulate their own households or you want the government to regulate?


both actually, i think guns and gun sales need to be monitored and regulated. I do think some guns should be restricted, i dont see why an american citizen needs a functional military grade rifle.

and i think gun owners should be legally liable for their guns


2nd ammendement reads:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

for some reason, people only focus on second part.

[Vegas]

both actually, i think guns and gun sales need to be monitored and regulated. I do think some guns should be restricted, i dont see why an american citizen needs a functional military grade rifle.

and i think gun owners should be legally liable for their guns


2nd ammendement reads:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

for some reason, people only focus on second part.

i don't completely disagree, but one of the problems I have with people saying that some guns should be restricted or saying that guns sales need to be monitored is that they are often unaware of how many laws already exist.

Have you studied the history of how the 2nd amendment came to be and understand that the intent was for private citizens to arm themselves?

[ryr8828]

both actually, i think guns and gun sales need to be monitored and regulated. I do think some guns should be restricted, i dont see why an american citizen needs a functional military grade rifle.

and i think gun owners should be legally liable for their guns


2nd ammendement reads:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

for some reason, people only focus on second part.

Everyone argues over how the word "militia" was meant or used.

I think we all know what "People" means.

[pnkpanther]

i don't completely disagree, but one of the problems I have with people saying that some guns should be restricted or saying that guns sales need to be monitored is that they are often unaware of how many laws already exist.

Have you studied the history of how the 2nd amendment came to be and understand that the intent was for private citizens to arm themselves?

more then most, not as many as some. I know it wasnt hundred % agreed on and it all had differing views, based on centralized and decentralized government.

i believe 95% (if not higher) gun owners are responsible. It sucks they have to pay price for those not, but these arguments dont hold water to me:

-Crooks dont legally get guns anyways
-restricting gun sales only affects responsible citizens.
-gun ownership reduces crime

[pnkpanther]

Everyone argues over how the word "militia" was meant or used.

I think we all know what "People" means.

where should line be drawn? should we be able to own RPG's?

[Vegas]

more then most, not as many as some. I know it wasnt hundred % agreed on and it all had differing views, based on centralized and decentralized government.

i believe 95% (if not higher) gun owners are responsible. It sucks they have to pay price for those not, but these arguments dont hold water to me:

-Crooks dont legally get guns anyways
-restricting gun sales only affects responsible citizens.
-gun ownership reduces crime

1 - So where to crooks buy their guns?

2 - You should talk to some people that I know in California that wanted to buy guns during the Rodney King riots. They were handed paperwork and told to come back in 15 days.

3 - Look at crime rates where there are restrictive gun laws and compare to areas where they have right-to-carry.

[Jiddy78]

Everyone argues over how the word "militia" was meant or used.

I think we all know what "People" means.

Gotta have the biggest missiles...

Gotta have a gun...

Gotta have a bigass monster truck...

I understand the law and I can live with it...What I think is that people do this out of fear or anger....Actually, fear AND anger.

What perplexes me is...One that has these things will argue that is maintains civility....A fair argument...and a very valid one....Wishing for people not to have guns I put along the same line as world peace...Never gonna happen...because people inherently are untrustworthy, thus they will fuel their own fires in this regard...

Idealism isn't reality. Have fun. Bear arms...I may meet my fate earlier by choosing not to own a gun...I just figure once it is proven that weapons don't, in fact, ensure civility (although they have been proven to help in this regard as stated earlier), then they will turn into our worst nightmare in response.

But hey...Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

[Jiddy78]

Gotta have the biggest missiles...

Gotta have a gun...

Gotta have a bigass monster truck...

I understand the law and I can live with it...What I think is that people do this out of fear or anger....Actually, fear AND anger.

What perplexes me is...One that has these things will argue that is maintains civility....A fair argument...and a very valid one....Wishing for people not to have guns I put along the same line as world peace...Never gonna happen...because people inherently are untrustworthy, thus they will fuel their own fires in this regard...

Idealism isn't reality. Have fun. Bear arms...I may meet my fate earlier by choosing not to own a gun...I just figure once it is proven that weapons don't, in fact, ensure civility (although they have been proven to help in this regard as stated earlier), then they will turn into our worst nightmare in response.

But hey...Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

these things = guns

[pnkpanther]

1 - So where to crooks buy their guns?

they have obtained them legally, and if we removed legislation on it, they could get them legally again.

2 - You should talk to some people that I know in California that wanted to buy guns during the Rodney King riots. They were handed paperwork and told to come back in 15 days.

I'm sure it kept guns out of hands of people commiting criminal acts as well. that was what, 15 years ago? it's a rare occurence for a riot. use boy scout motto, be prepared

3 - Look at crime rates where there are restrictive gun laws and compare to areas where they have right-to-carry

i'm sure there are more variable's then that. it's a statistical argument we could go back and forth all day on.

[Vegas]

A little history behind the 2nd amendment:

Thomas Jefferson said, "No free man shall be debarred the use of arms."

Patrick Henry said, "The great object is, that every man be armed."

Richard Henry Lee wrote that, "to preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms."

Thomas Paine noted, "[A]rms . . . discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property."

Samuel Adams warned that: "The said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."

[hannitykillspuppies]

1 - So where to crooks buy their guns?
2 - You should talk to some people that I know in California that wanted to buy guns during the Rodney King riots. They were handed paperwork and told to come back in 15 days.

3 - Look at crime rates where there are restrictive gun laws and compare to areas where they have right-to-carry.

wherever they are sold illegally.

[Vegas]

wherever they are sold illegally.

So you agree that restrictive gun laws won't keep criminals from getting guns.

[hannitykillspuppies]

So you agree that restrictive gun laws won't keep criminals from getting guns.

not unless they are laws for the black market.

i do agree with pnk that no ordinary citizen needs to own a military assault rifle.

[ryr8828]

Gotta have the biggest missiles...

Gotta have a gun...

Gotta have a bigass monster truck...

I understand the law and I can live with it...What I think is that people do this out of fear or anger....Actually, fear AND anger.

What perplexes me is...One that has these things will argue that is maintains civility....A fair argument...and a very valid one....Wishing for people not to have guns I put along the same line as world peace...Never gonna happen...because people inherently are untrustworthy, thus they will fuel their own fires in this regard...

Idealism isn't reality. Have fun. Bear arms...I may meet my fate earlier by choosing not to own a gun...I just figure once it is proven that weapons don't, in fact, ensure civility (although they have been proven to help in this regard as stated earlier), then they will turn into our worst nightmare in response.

But hey...Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

I naturally want to live, but I've been through a lot. I will continue to put my wife and kids and grandkids into the biggest suv I can afford, and I will have a loaded weapon handy in case someone decides to try and harm them. Since it's handy I'll go ahead and defend myself with it, since they need me around to defend them.

I had an uncle who was a millionaire, lived in Burbank. Right next door to Fess Parker when we visited out there when I was a kid. He sold his contracting business and was living off his savings, stocks, and rental property. Hell his kids are even set for life.

He had a huge F250 4x4, had an aftermarket turbocharger on it. He went and bought a new Toyota pickup to drive around and SAVE FREAKING GAS.
A friend of his and him were coming back from somewhere in the toyota, saving all kinds of gas, when a van that was being pursued by police hit him head on.
He's dead, his friends dead. People say he probably would have lived in his other vehicle.
I'll drive the biggest son of a bitch I can afford, and people will have to guess when there will be a pistol in the console of it.

[Vegas]

not unless they are laws for the black market.

i do agree with pnk that no ordinary citizen needs to own a military assault rifle.

The problem is in defining what a military assault weapon is. There are some definitions that would make my Colt double action revolver an assault weapon. And Bill Clinton has admitted that his own definition of an assault weapon would include the shotgun he used for duck hunting.

[hannitykillspuppies]

The problem is in defining what a military assault weapon is. There are some definitions that would make my Colt double action revolver an assault weapon. And Bill Clinton has admitted that his own definition of an assault weapon would include the shotgun he used for duck hunting.

no citizen needs an ak-47, m4, ar-15, etc.

[LSU]

The problem is in defining what a military assault weapon is. There are some definitions that would make my Colt double action revolver an assault weapon. And Bill Clinton has admitted that his own definition of an assault weapon would include the shotgun he used for duck hunting.



He's hardcore.

http://www.defensereview.com/stories/aa-12/AA12%20Shotgun_FIREBALL%20WITH%20CASE%20EXTRACTION .jpg



http://www.militarypictures.info/d/958-4/spas-12.jpg

[hannitykillspuppies]

The problem is in defining what a military assault weapon is. There are some definitions that would make my Colt double action revolver an assault weapon. And Bill Clinton has admitted that his own definition of an assault weapon would include the shotgun he used for duck hunting.


and 18 year olds shouldn't be able to legally buy guns.

[ryr8828]

I'll forever regret not buying a Street Sweeper when they were still legal.

[Vegas]

and 18 year olds shouldn't be able to legally buy guns.

What are the laws that already exist regarding that?

[hannitykillspuppies]

I'll forever regret not buying a Street Sweeper when they were still legal.
i'm sure you could make your own.

[hannitykillspuppies]

What are the laws that already exist regarding that?

if you're 18 i believe you can purchase a shotgun and/or a rifle.

[Vegas]

no citizen needs an ak-47, m4, ar-15, etc.

What's the difference between these two rifles?

http://davesguns.com/serverpics/UsedPage/Remington-12a-01.jpg'

http://www.pearcegrip.com/images/ar15-2.JPG

[Vegas]

if you're 18 i believe you can purchase a shotgun and/or a rifle.

In most states, I believe you're wrong.

[hannitykillspuppies]

What's the difference between these two rifles?

http://davesguns.com/serverpics/UsedPage/Remington-12a-01.jpg'

http://www.pearcegrip.com/images/ar15-2.JPG

i don't know the difference between two red x's.

[ryr8828]

i'm sure you could make your own.

I doubt it.

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/striker.jpg
or
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/protecta.jpg

[hannitykillspuppies]

In most states, I believe you're wrong.



i don't believe so, unless laws were recently changed in most states. or maybe it's just the incredibly dumb state i reside in, which would not shock me at all.

[Vegas]

i don't know the difference between two red x's.

It shows up for me. Anyway, one is an older semi-automatic hunting rifle with a wood stock and one is an AR15.

The correct answer regarding the difference is cosmetics. That's it.

[ryr8828]

What's the difference between these two rifles?

http://davesguns.com/serverpics/UsedPage/Remington-12a-01.jpg'

http://www.pearcegrip.com/images/ar15-2.JPG

You can find a banana clip for the AR 15. It also has the assault rifle stigma because of it's look.

[Jiddy78]

I naturally want to live, but I've been through a lot. I will continue to put my wife and kids and grandkids into the biggest suv I can afford, and I will have a loaded weapon handy in case someone decides to try and harm them. Since it's handy I'll go ahead and defend myself with it, since they need me around to defend them.

I had an uncle who was a millionaire, lived in Burbank. Right next door to Fess Parker when we visited out there when I was a kid. He sold his contracting business and was living off his savings, stocks, and rental property. Hell his kids are even set for life.

He had a huge F250 4x4, had an aftermarket turbocharger on it. He went and bought a new Toyota pickup to drive around and SAVE FREAKING GAS.
A friend of his and him were coming back from somewhere in the toyota, saving all kinds of gas, when a van that was being pursued by police hit him head on.
He's dead, his friends dead. People say he probably would have lived in his other vehicle.
I'll drive the biggest son of a bitch I can afford, and people will have to guess when there will be a pistol in the console of it.

I'm sorry to hear this man.

[ryr8828]

I'm sorry to hear this man.

Thanks, but he's been dead probably 10 years now and he left me nothing.

Of course, I didn't deserve anything. I only saw him once a year or so.

I called him Uncle Ernie, he was actually married to my Dad's first cousin and they later divorced (and she married a truck driver). How that makes him related to me I have no idea.

[Jiddy78]

Thanks, but he's been dead probably 10 years now and he left me nothing.

Of course, I didn't deserve anything. I only saw him once a year or so.

I called him Uncle Ernie, he was actually married to my Dad's first cousin and they later divorced (and she married a truck driver). How that makes him related to me I have no idea.

If it makes you feel any better, wifey and I wasted a toyota dealer's time yesterday taking a solara out for a test...then told him that the mustang was way better for the money...

His reply?

Yeah, I actually own a mustang...It's out back. :p

[Vegas]

If it makes you feel any better, wifey and I wasted a toyota dealer's time yesterday taking a solara out for a test...then told him that the mustang was way better for the money...

His reply?

Yeah, I actually own a mustang...It's out back. :p

I bet he got the V-8.

[ryr8828]

You people are killing me. There's a red 66 with a 289 sitting on a lot and I drive by it everyday. I'm dying to check it out.

[Jiddy78]

I bet he got the V-8.

Do you have an 8-cylinder in your car?

Speaking of...Tomorrow is the new day for ford deals...Keepin' my fingers crossed...Could save me a bundle of money if the deals are better....

[ryr8828]

Do you have an 8-cylinder in your car?

Speaking of...Tomorrow is the new day for ford deals...Keepin' my fingers crossed...Could save me a bundle of money if the deals are better....

I thought you had already ordered it?

[Jiddy78]

You people are killing me. There's a red 66 with a 289 sitting on a lot and I drive by it everyday. I'm dying to check it out.

Go take it for a test...Nothing to lose but some time...Take wifey...You shoulda seen my girl's grill when I unleashed the solstice 0-60 in 5.5 yesterday...

[Vegas]

Do you have an 8-cylinder in your car?

Speaking of...Tomorrow is the new day for ford deals...Keepin' my fingers crossed...Could save me a bundle of money if the deals are better....

I drive my mother-in-law's Saturn Ion basically every day. It's a 4 cylinder. But the kind of car you're looking at should only be purchased with the biggest engine available.

[Jiddy78]

I thought you had already ordered it?

I didn't haggle sticker...I just told the guy I wanted every option and that he had to honor the best deal available between my order date (a little over a week ago) and delivery date.

He agreed and put it on paper and signed it...

My understanding is that normal protocol is that you get the deal that is available upon date of pickup...but I was having none of that if 2.9 for 36 is gone...Doubling that juice puts me over my acceptable limit.

I probably could've got one cheaper off the lot...but none (and I mean none...Like 1/50) have cloth tops (only vinyl), so that was a dealbreaker for me....so ordering one was the only probability...My priority is 10 (highest possible) and it should be in in 5-6 weeks from now.

[Jiddy78]

I drive my mother-in-law's Saturn Ion basically every day. It's a 4 cylinder. But the kind of car you're looking at should only be purchased with the biggest engine available.


Are you kidding? A car that is all talk and no action defines me.

[Jiddy78]

I drive my mother-in-law's Saturn Ion basically every day. It's a 4 cylinder. But the kind of car you're looking at should only be purchased with the biggest engine available.


Wait a second...Did you just say you drive mommy's car?

[Vegas]

Wait a second...Did you just say you drive mommy's car?

LOL I should have been more specific. It's my car, but it was originally designated for my MIL.

[Jiddy78]

LOL I should have been more specific. It's my car, but it was originally designated for my MIL.

I had you pegged for a lexus guy.

[Vegas]

I had you pegged for a lexus guy.

Not me. I have a thing about not buying Japanese cars. I think they're highly overrated. They got a reputation for quality during the oil embargo years ago when American companies rushed a bunch of small cars to market and competed against the Japanese cars that were already designed. Those Japanese cars were better quality primarily because they were already established. Japanese cars still have a higher quality rating based on customer satisfaction, but that is largely based on people being happy that they bought a new car and they already have a bias that the Japanese car they bought is great.

I've owned a few expensive cars and I just don't like the depreciation. I like safe & cheap. I'm not always successful in selling that philosophy to the boss.

[Jiddy78]

Not me. I have a thing about not buying Japanese cars. I think they're highly overrated. They got a reputation for quality during the oil embargo years ago when American companies rushed a bunch of small cars to market and competed against the Japanese cars that were already designed. Those Japanese cars were better quality primarily because they were already established. Japanese cars still have a higher quality rating based on customer satisfaction, but that is largely based on people being happy that they bought a new car and they already have a bias that the Japanese car they bought is great.

I've owned a few expensive cars and I just don't like the depreciation. I like safe & cheap. I'm not always successful in selling that philosophy to the boss.


Toyota's creature comforts kill ford's based on what I've seen...As far as safety...I know not....I care less and less since I don't like suv's, thus eliminating my ability to be safe anyway. It's either splat or splat harder...:rolleyes:

[Vegas]

Toyota's creature comforts kill ford's based on what I've seen...As far as safety...I know not....I care less and less since I don't like suv's, thus eliminating my ability to be safe anyway. It's either splat or splat harder...:rolleyes:

I like Saturns with their welded steel cage. For the money, weight, and size they're pretty hard to beat.

[Jiddy78]

I like Saturns with their welded steel cage. For the money, weight, and size they're pretty hard to beat.

Roy wants you to buy a Sky. (Jiddy does too)

[ryr8828]

I've got a bad craving for a new 4 door 4 wheel drive Silverado loaded to the gills.

[Jiddy78]

I've got a bad craving for a new 4 door 4 wheel drive Silverado loaded to the gills.

Heated seats?

[ryr8828]

Heated seats?

Most definately. They feel really good on my back on the way to the golf course. You never know how much you need something like that until you have it.

[Jiddy78]

Most definately. They feel really good on my back on the way to the golf course. You never know how much you need something like that until you have it.

I learned the power just this past Christmas when we rented a car with them to go up to visit the in-laws...The 'stang will have them, oh yes.

[i_hate_righties]

A little history behind the 2nd amendment:

Thomas Jefferson said, "No free man shall be debarred the use of arms."

Patrick Henry said, "The great object is, that every man be armed."

Richard Henry Lee wrote that, "to preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms."

Thomas Paine noted, "[A]rms . . . discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property."

Samuel Adams warned that: "The said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."

I love these quotes when used to argue gun laws in this era....Our forefathers could not even conceive of the "arms" we have today....If people want to go back to the guns carried during the 18th and even the 19th century...I am all for it....I think it would be harder to do a drive by with a musket!:rolleyes:

[Vegas]

I love these quotes when used to argue gun laws in this era....Our forefathers could not even conceive of the "arms" we have today....If people want to go back to the guns carried during the 18th and even the 19th century...I am all for it....I think it would be harder to do a drive by with a musket!:rolleyes:

So by your logic, I should be able to own any weapon as deadly as the ones the US government owns.

[Jiddy78]

So by your logic, I should be able to own any weapon as deadly as the ones the US government owns.

Actually, I read it as her saying that they might have had a different outlook on it if King George had some men busting out flame throwers.

[Vegas]

Actually, I read it as her saying that they might have had a different outlook on it if King George had some men busting out flame throwers.

Since one of the fundamental reasons for allowing citizens to own arms is to prevent a repressive government, I believe that would be a wrong interpretation.

[BoredWithNoSB]

Since one of the fundamental reasons for allowing citizens to own arms is to prevent a repressive government, I believe that would be a wrong interpretation.

However, I think we're already at the point where we cannot mount a militia against what we may observe as a repressive government lest we be held as enemy combatants by that government.

[LSU]

Since one of the fundamental reasons for allowing citizens to own arms is to prevent a repressive government, I believe that would be a wrong interpretation.



Repressive in terms of what a woman can do with her body, who a man can marry, and what types of stem cells scientists can get funding for? Or another kind of repressive?


My .22 and 30-30 are certainly going to keep a platoon from repressing me.

[Jiddy78]

Since one of the fundamental reasons for allowing citizens to own arms is to prevent a repressive government, I believe that would be a wrong interpretation.


Yeah, but when does the government become "repressive???" Or is it the people are too...demanding...

Tugging forces...

[pnkpanther]

So by your logic, I should be able to own any weapon as deadly as the ones the US government owns.

should we?

i want to a F-19

[Jiddy78]

should we?

i want to a F-19

If it helps, I'll call the HHR that.


"How's the F-19 doing pnk?"

I'll hit you up in a few months.

[LSU]

I want this.

http://www.warbirdforum.com/iraqhog.jpg

[pnkpanther]

ahhh a wart hog, a lot of tank's rolling through your neighborhood

[LSU]

ahhh a wart hog, a lot of tank's rolling through your neighborhood



There's an H2 down the road a bit. And a few suburbans.

I just want to keep my family safe.