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View Full Version : ACLU is becoming very selective about what it considers "free" speech.


Vegas
05-23-2007, 11:13 AM
http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010111

"ACLU Defends Nazi's Right to Burn Down ACLU Headquarters," the humor magazine The Onion announced in 1999. Those of us who loved the ACLU, and celebrated its willingness to defend the rights of Nazis and others who had no regard for our rights, considered the joke a compliment. Today it's more like a reproach. Once the nation's leading civil liberties group and a reliable defender of everyone's speech rights, the ACLU is being transformed into just another liberal human-rights group that reliably defends the rights of liberal speakers.

This transformation is gradual, unacknowledged and not readily apparent, since evidence of it lies mainly in cases the ACLU does not take. It's naturally easier to know what an organization is doing (and advertising) than what it is not doing. But a review of recent free-speech press releases turns up only a handful of cases in which ACLU state affiliates defended the rights of conservative, antigay or otherwise politically incorrect speakers. And lately the national organization has been remarkably quiet in several important free-speech cases and controversies.

One of the clearest indications of a retreat from defending all speech regardless of content is the ACLU's virtual silence in Harper v. Poway, an important federal case involving a high-school student's right to wear a T-shirt condemning homosexuality. Of course, the ACLU doesn't speak out on every case, but historically it has vigorously defended student speech rights, as its Web site stresses. It is currently representing a student in a speech case before the Supreme Court, Morse v. Frederick (involving the right of a student to carry a nonsensical "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" banner at an off-campus event). The ACLU pays particular attention to the right to wear T-shirts with pro-gay messages in school, proudly citing cases in which it represented students wearing pro-gay (as well as anti-Bush) T-shirts. This year, the ACLU awarded a Youth Activist Scholarship to a student who fought the efforts of her school to bar students from wearing T-shirts that said "Gay, Fine by me."

So in 2004, when Tyler Chase Harper was disciplined for wearing a T-shirt declaring his religious objections to homosexuality, civil libertarians might have expected the ACLU to protest loudly. Mr. Harper was barred from attending classes when he wore the antigay T-shirt to school on an official "Day of Silence," when gay students taped their mouths to symbolize the silencing effect of intolerance. Represented by the Alliance Defense Fund, he sued the school district. That same year, the ACLU initiated the first of two actions against a Missouri school that punished students for wearing "gay supportive T-shirts," eventually securing a promise from the school to "stop censoring," the ACLU Web site boasts. Mr. Harper, however, was unsuccessful in his quest to stop school censorship. In a patronizing, antilibertarian decision in which Judge Stephen Reinhardt stressed the imagined feelings of gay students, the Ninth Circuit rejected Mr. Harper's First Amendment claims. (There was a sharp dissent from Judge Alex Kozinski.)

Perhaps the ACLU was observing its own prolonged Day of Silence, because, while it pays close attention to federal appellate court decisions on civil liberties, it effectively ignored this terrible precedent, even when Mr. Harper appealed to the Supreme Court. The Court dismissed the case as moot because Mr. Harper had graduated but took the unusual step of vacating the decision so that it no longer exists as precedent (no thanks to the ACLU). Mr. Harper's younger sister, still in school, continued pressing his claims and her case is pending before the Ninth circuit. The ACLU has not adopted her cause either.

The Harpers didn't need representation from the ACLU. But the organization frequently speaks up for the rights of people it does not represent, like Guantanamo detainees, and often files amicus briefs in important civil liberties cases. Given its focus on student rights and religious liberty (one of the ACLU's priorities), it's hard to explain the ACLU's apparent equanimity about the violation of Mr. Harper's First Amendment rights--unless you consider the content of his speech.

This case does not appear to be anomalous. Despite its professed commitment to religious liberty, for example, the ACLU tends to absent itself from cases on college campuses involving the associational rights of Christian student groups to discriminate against gay students, in accordance with their religious beliefs. But conservative students might be grateful for the ACLU's absence. Consider its intervention in a successful federal court challenge to an unconstitutional speech code at Georgia Tech, brought by the Alliance Defense Fund in 2006 on behalf of two conservative religious students. The ACLU of Georgia filed an amicus brief proposing a substitute but still overbroad "antiharassment" policy that included a prohibition on "injurious communications . . . directed toward an individual because of their characteristics or beliefs." In other words: Students should be punished for sharply criticizing or satirizing each other's beliefs if their remarks are deemed "injurious." Occasionally an ACLU affiliate does intervene in defense of politically incorrect speech and vigorous debate on campus. But the Foundation for Individual Rights In Education has become a much more reliable advocate for the rights of all college students, regardless of ideology or religion. (I serve on both FIRE's advisory board and the board of the Massachusetts ACLU affiliate.)
The ACLU was even AWOL in one of the most visible and frightening free-speech controversies in recent years--the Muhammad cartoons, which many condemned as "hate speech." When Muslim groups violently protested the cartoons (first published in the Danish press), when American newspapers declined to publish them for fear of reprisals, and when the U.S. State Department condemned their publication--the ACLU exercised its right to remain silent. In fact, its press office actually advised ducking questions about the cartoons that might arise during discussions of torture at Abu Ghraib. A set of talking points from the press office recommended responding to questions about the cartoons by exhorting the U.S. government to "demonstrate . . . that it is taking the Abu Ghraib images seriously." (This was later spun as an effort to stay on message about abuses at Abu Ghraib.)

Not until an ACLU donor complained about this silence on the cartoon controversy, and questions about it were raised before the ACLU board, did ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero speak up--quietly. He mentioned the controversy in a relatively obscure dinner speech to the National Association of Hispanic Journalists. He sent a letter to the University of Illinois urging it not to discipline student editors who published the cartoons in a campus paper. In a letter to the ACLU board, Mr. Romero both denied and defended the ACLU's relative silence: "With regard to the cartoons, rather than put out a hortatory statement that no one would read (except insiders) but might make us feel good about ourselves, we have tried to engage in thoughtful forums and discussions that relate to the issue. Speaking out on an issue involves more than slapping a paragraph together and posting it on a website."

Perhaps. But, like other advocacy groups, the ACLU routinely circulates hortatory statements to insiders that herald the organization's important work. And it regularly posts slapped-together paragraphs on the ACLU Web site (and in emails) about the abuses of the Bush administration, among other subjects. In fact, much of the ACLU's post 9/11 work (and its budget priorities) involves public education. Whatever Mr. Romero's reasons for staying out of the cartoon controversy, they did not include disdain for paying lip service to free speech.

Why did the ACLU avoid issuing a loud and clear public statement decrying violent efforts to suppress the Muhammad cartoons? Its silence may have reflected growing sympathy among ACLU leaders and supporters for restricting what many liberals condemn as hate speech. "Take hate speech," Mr. Romero remarked to the New York Times in May 2006. "While believing in free speech, we do not believe in or condone speech that attacks minorities." (He was commenting on a proposal to bar board members from criticizing the ACLU--a proposal that was amended only after being exposed in the Times.)

Liberal sympathy for restricting hate speech may also explain the failure of the New York Civil Liberties Union to oppose the New York City Council's recent, symbolic moratorium on use of the n-word. NYCLU Executive Director Donna Lieberman justified her silence to the New York Times, explaining that, "The Council is entitled to a point of view. It would be an entirely different matter if the Council was considering a law to ban use of the n-word." But this ignores the natural tendency of an official, symbolic ban on speech to encourage support for an actual ban. If the City Council passed a symbolic resolution denouncing flag burning or criticizing the president, I'd bet my yearly contribution to the ACLU that Ms. Lieberman would oppose it vociferously.

Finally, the ACLU has affirmatively supported legislative restrictions on speech it does not like, even when it is clearly political. Last March, the ACLU announced its support for a bill introduced by Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D., N.Y.) aimed at barring antiabortion centers from advertising "abortion counseling" services. While some crisis pregnancy centers that offer abortion counseling can fairly be accused of engaging in a bait and switch (trying to lure women seeking abortions into counseling sessions with antiabortion advocates), they're also engaged in political speech at the core of First Amendment protections. Not surprisingly, the ACLU's endorsement of legislation restricting this speech generated controversy when it was reported in the New York Sun. How did ACLU leaders respond? The press release announcing support for the Maloney bill was deleted from the ACLU Web site. Today, one year later, the national board is seriously considering adopting a policy on commercial speech that would support restrictions on advertising by nonprofit antiabortion clinics.

This is not the same organization that once took pride in its costly, principled decision to defend the rights of neo-Nazis to march in a community of Holocaust survivors in Skokie, Ill. Of course the ACLU hasn't definitively abandoned its defense of speech: Large, national organizations change incrementally. But people should no longer depend on the ACLU to defend what they preach (especially at a cost), if it disapproves of what they practice.

pnkpanther
05-23-2007, 11:21 AM
what did the shirt say?

IBC
05-23-2007, 11:23 AM
Hate speech against homosexuals is not a civil liberty IMO. That said, I would think the ACLU has to defend it to an extent. If some dumbass ridiculous waste of space wants to wear a shirt that says "I hate gays", or thinks he is clever by saying "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", I suppose the ACLU should respect his right to be a frickin idiot.

pnkpanther
05-23-2007, 11:28 AM
Hate speech against homosexuals is not a civil liberty IMO. That said, I would think the ACLU has to defend it to an extent. If some dumbass ridiculous waste of space wants to wear a shirt that says "I hate gays", or thinks he is clever by saying "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", I suppose the ACLU should respect his right to be a frickin idiot.


i agree, if his shirt isnt hate filled like (and i've seen this)

Aids, the cure for Fags

God hates Fags

or something to that extent, let it be.

IBC
05-23-2007, 11:33 AM
i agree, if his shirt isnt hate filled like (and i've seen this)

Aids, the cure for Fags

God hates Fags

or something to that extent, let it be.

Yes, he is only showing that he is a backwards ass idiot. Probably fighting really hard against what is his nature, to be gay. The guy, growing up that called everyone "Gay" and "Faggot" is the guy today that brings his partner to the reunion. Re-channeling homosexuality into hate is an all too common thing. Like Haggard, or the guy I went to high school with. Scary that they can't just accept their feelings and get themselves a boyfriend.

Vegas
05-23-2007, 11:49 AM
Hate speech against homosexuals is not a civil liberty IMO. That said, I would think the ACLU has to defend it to an extent. If some dumbass ridiculous waste of space wants to wear a shirt that says "I hate gays", or thinks he is clever by saying "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", I suppose the ACLU should respect his right to be a frickin idiot.

When the Nazis or Klan wants to have a hate rally, is that a civil liberty?

IBC
05-23-2007, 11:56 AM
When the Nazis or Klan wants to have a hate rally, is that a civil liberty?

Depends. As soon as it becomes insidious it is not. You may be able to argue that their very presence is insidious. Same goes for the closeted homosexuals that hate gays and wear these stupid t-shirts. We had a homosexual kid in my high school that would make sexual advances at straights to try and prove a point. That crossed the line to illegal as he was making unwanted sexual advances. We also had kids advocating violence against them. That is not a civil liberty either. If his shirt said kill a queer, it would be wrong. I misspoke when I said it wasn't a civil liberty. It is. Just stupid as fuck. People that feel they have to wear a shirt that screams "I am not gay", are probably closeted homosexuals. It is not wrong to be gay, just sad to turn it into hate.

Vegas
05-23-2007, 11:59 AM
Depends. As soon as it becomes insidious it is not. You may be able to argue that their very presence is insidious. Same goes for the closeted homosexuals that hate gays and wear these stupid t-shirts. We had a homosexual kid in my high school that would make sexual advances at straights to try and prove a point. That crossed the line to illegal as he was making unwanted sexual advances. We also had kids advocating violence against them. That is not a civil liberty either. If his shirt said kill a queer, it would be wrong. I misspoke when I said it wasn't a civil liberty. It is. Just stupid as fuck. People that feel they have to wear a shirt that screams "I am not gay", are probably closeted homosexuals. It is not wrong to be gay, just sad to turn it into hate.

I would definitely say that the presence of hate groups is insidious. But I think the easiest way to get rid of that crap is not through the courts. It's much easier than that. If everyone would just ignore them, they'd go away. The publicity they get when people go protest and news crews show up is what keeps them going.

IBC
05-23-2007, 12:02 PM
I would definitely say that the presence of hate groups is insidious. But I think the easiest way to get rid of that crap is not through the courts. It's much easier than that. If everyone would just ignore them, they'd go away. The publicity they get when people go protest and news crews show up is what keeps them going.
I agree. And it only helps them recruit. The media sucks sometimes. We had the KKK come and demonstrate in Springfield when I was young and it turned violent.

I am a very peaceful guy for the most part. If I ever saw one of those "God hates Fags" protesters or kkk bullshit it would be hard not to kick the shit out of one of them.

pnkpanther
05-23-2007, 12:07 PM
When the Nazis or Klan wants to have a hate rally, is that a civil liberty?

it is there right

Vegas
05-23-2007, 12:13 PM
it is there right

The courts have ruled that way, but I still question it. I still like the ignore option, though.

swordfish
05-23-2007, 12:15 PM
Depends. As soon as it becomes insidious it is not. You may be able to argue that their very presence is insidious. Same goes for the closeted homosexuals that hate gays and wear these stupid t-shirts. We had a homosexual kid in my high school that would make sexual advances at straights to try and prove a point. That crossed the line to illegal as he was making unwanted sexual advances. We also had kids advocating violence against them. That is not a civil liberty either. If his shirt said kill a queer, it would be wrong. I misspoke when I said it wasn't a civil liberty. It is. Just stupid as fuck. People that feel they have to wear a shirt that screams "I am not gay", are probably closeted homosexuals. It is not wrong to be gay, just sad to turn it into hate.

So basically being proud that your gay is OK, but being proud that your hetero tramples on the rights of the poor gays. It is really too bad that I am a white hetero male with good business sense. I don't get any reasons to cry or whine that I am being mistreated. If only I had the desire to suck a man's dick then I could flit around and tell everyone how mistreated I am and how everyone makes fun of the cum on my mouth.

LSU
05-23-2007, 12:17 PM
The courts have ruled that way, but I still question it. I still like the ignore option, though.


It's just like a message board. Ignore probably is the best option. But it's never a real world solution because no one can ignore everything.

Vegas
05-23-2007, 12:18 PM
It's just like a message board. Ignore probably is the best option. But it's never a real world solution because no one can ignore everything.

I'd have no problem ignoring a klan rally.

LSU
05-23-2007, 12:21 PM
I'd have no problem ignoring a klan rally.


Yes, that's you.

Would you just as easily be able to ignore a rally of a bunch of say...Mexicans...waving Mexican flags above the American flags? Or how about a militant black panther rally? An Anti-Christian rally?

It's easier to ignore the hate when you're not being hated.

Vegas
05-23-2007, 12:22 PM
Yes, that's you.

Would you just as easily be able to ignore a rally of a bunch of say...Mexicans...waving Mexican flags above the American flags? Or how about a militant black panther rally? An Anti-Christian rally?

It's easier to ignore the hate when you're not being hated.

Yes. All of those hate groups are the same to me.

IBC
05-23-2007, 12:23 PM
So basically being proud that your gay is OK, but being proud that your hetero tramples on the rights of the poor gays. It is really too bad that I am a white hetero male with good business sense. I don't get any reasons to cry or whine that I am being mistreated. If only I had the desire to suck a man's dick then I could flit around and tell everyone how mistreated I am and how everyone makes fun of the cum on my mouth.

Cum on your mouth? I believe you proved my point man.

LSU
05-23-2007, 12:24 PM
Yes. All of those hate groups are the same to me.


Haven't you posted articles about the pro-Mexican rallies and talked about how their trying to cede the Southwest for Mexico, and make it primarily Mexican territory?

Or lambasted people that make any mention of taking Christianity out of the mainstream?

LSU
05-23-2007, 12:24 PM
So basically being proud that your gay is OK, but being proud that your hetero tramples on the rights of the poor gays. It is really too bad that I am a white hetero male with good business sense. I don't get any reasons to cry or whine that I am being mistreated. If only I had the desire to suck a man's dick then I could flit around and tell everyone how mistreated I am and how everyone makes fun of the cum on my mouth.


People make fun of the cum on your mouth?

That's simply not right.

Vegas
05-23-2007, 12:26 PM
Haven't you posted articles about the pro-Mexican rallies and talked about how their trying to cede the Southwest for Mexico, and make it primarily Mexican territory?

Or lambasted people that make any mention of taking Christianity out of the mainstream?

Posting articles about the rallies isn't the same as going there to protest their protest. It's just a news thing to me. And I don't think I've lambasted people that want to take the mentioning of Christianity out of the mainstream.

IBC
05-23-2007, 12:28 PM
So basically being proud that your gay is OK, but being proud that your hetero tramples on the rights of the poor gays. It is really too bad that I am a white hetero male with good business sense. I don't get any reasons to cry or whine that I am being mistreated. If only I had the desire to suck a man's dick then I could flit around and tell everyone how mistreated I am and how everyone makes fun of the cum on my mouth.

You know man, I thought about this for a second. If you want to give blowjobs to prove your heterosexuality you go right ahead. That'll show 'em.

LSU
05-23-2007, 12:28 PM
Posting articles about the rallies isn't the same as going there to protest their protest. It's just a news thing to me. And I don't think I've lambasted people that want to take the mentioning of Christianity out of the mainstream.



But it's not ignoring the situation...I didn't mean active protesting...

pnkpanther
05-23-2007, 12:37 PM
no one is saying no to pro hetereo shirts

and yes, straight, whitemen that make money bitch too

hannitykillspuppies
05-23-2007, 02:16 PM
So basically being proud that your gay is OK, but being proud that your hetero tramples on the rights of the poor gays. It is really too bad that I am a white hetero male with good business sense. I don't get any reasons to cry or whine that I am being mistreated. If only I had the desire to suck a man's dick then I could flit around and tell everyone how mistreated I am and how everyone makes fun of the cum on my mouth.

are you a christian? cause if so you could whine about how your religion is constantly under attack in this country.

and are you saying those examples of shirts are signs that you're proud to be hetero?

swordfish
05-23-2007, 04:00 PM
pnk has some good points.

I never condoned anyone saying they want to kill anyone. I was really being sarcastic and pointing to the fact about how everyone acts mistreated. It always seems fair for gays to be proud, but heteros better not say a word or else its homophobic or making fun of gays.

If gay people are proud then I am glad for them. I personally do not have to go around and tell everyone that I like women to make myself feel better about it. My few short years of life have taught me that the person doing the most advertising has the inferior product. The small dog does all the barking. The little smartass that cant fight is always running his mouth. It really boils down to the same thing. The product sells itself. I do not have to go around telling my friends how cool it is to be with a woman. Gays however seemingly have to push every angle they can to get people to "believe" its so cool to be gay. If anyone uses the same angle then they start a big deal about it. There is an example of kids wearing pro gay shirts to school and one kid wearing a pro hetero shirt and getting kicked out.

I really have no beef with gay people. I know several and I feel they are good productive people. I just do not agree with their sexual orientation. That does not mean that I try to abuse them or mistreat them. I just do not agree and fail to come to an agreement. If my child said he/she was gay I still would not agree, that does not mean I would not love my child. Everyone should really get past the hate and telling everyone else what to do. Everyone sins in one form of another, there should be more understanding.

I should have gotten into this discussion when it was about the ACLU and freedom of speech. Why does every thread turn into a talk about homosexuals, religion or president Bush.

IBC
05-23-2007, 04:23 PM
pnk has some good points.

I never condoned anyone saying they want to kill anyone. I was really being sarcastic and pointing to the fact about how everyone acts mistreated. It always seems fair for gays to be proud, but heteros better not say a word or else its homophobic or making fun of gays.

If gay people are proud then I am glad for them. I personally do not have to go around and tell everyone that I like women to make myself feel better about it. My few short years of life have taught me that the person doing the most advertising has the inferior product. The small dog does all the barking. The little smartass that cant fight is always running his mouth. The gay hater is gay It really boils down to the same thing. The product sells itself. I do not have to go around telling my friends how cool it is to be with a woman. Gays however seemingly have to push every angle they can to get people to "believe" its so cool to be gay. If anyone uses the same angle then they start a big deal about it. There is an example of kids wearing pro gay shirts to school and one kid wearing a pro hetero shirt and getting kicked out.

I really have no beef with gay people. I know several and I feel they are good productive people. I just do not agree with their sexual orientation. That does not mean that I try to abuse them or mistreat them. I just do not agree and fail to come to an agreement. If my child said he/she was gay I still would not agree, that does not mean I would not love my child. Everyone should really get past the hate and telling everyone else what to do. Everyone sins in one form of another, there should be more understanding.

I should have gotten into this discussion when it was about the ACLU and freedom of speech. Why does every thread turn into a talk about homosexuals, religion or president Bush.

This was about a kids right to wear anti-gay or even hateful slogans on his shirt and the supposed hypocrisy of the ACLU for not supporting this.

That said, can you answer the question why gay pride as opposed to straight pride? Every day is straight pride for us. We live in a straight world where being straight is the norm and the expectation. Ever hear about straight bashing? Ever here being straight is disgusting? Ever called straight in a derogatory way? Can you not understand the difference? Remember when they tied up the straight guy behind the truck for being straight?

As too the whole posturing argument, that is often true with gay guys acting straight too. They feel the need to hate out of their own repressed homosexuality. It is too bad that they can't just accept themselves for who they are. Added that up there on your quote where I think it should be.

Jiddy78
05-23-2007, 04:25 PM
no one is saying no to pro hetereo shirts

and yes, straight, whitemen that make money bitch too

I've never whined once...Ever.

Jiddy78
05-23-2007, 04:27 PM
pnk has some good points.

I never condoned anyone saying they want to kill anyone. I was really being sarcastic and pointing to the fact about how everyone acts mistreated. It always seems fair for gays to be proud, but heteros better not say a word or else its homophobic or making fun of gays.

If gay people are proud then I am glad for them. I personally do not have to go around and tell everyone that I like women to make myself feel better about it. My few short years of life have taught me that the person doing the most advertising has the inferior product. The small dog does all the barking. The little smartass that cant fight is always running his mouth. It really boils down to the same thing. The product sells itself. I do not have to go around telling my friends how cool it is to be with a woman. Gays however seemingly have to push every angle they can to get people to "believe" its so cool to be gay. If anyone uses the same angle then they start a big deal about it. There is an example of kids wearing pro gay shirts to school and one kid wearing a pro hetero shirt and getting kicked out.

I really have no beef with gay people. I know several and I feel they are good productive people. I just do not agree with their sexual orientation. That does not mean that I try to abuse them or mistreat them. I just do not agree and fail to come to an agreement. If my child said he/she was gay I still would not agree, that does not mean I would not love my child. Everyone should really get past the hate and telling everyone else what to do. Everyone sins in one form of another, there should be more understanding.

I should have gotten into this discussion when it was about the ACLU and freedom of speech. Why does every thread turn into a talk about homosexuals, religion or president Bush.

I've hardly talked about any of those 3 topics....Let's chat. So, are you a financial whore or what? I can be sometimes.

swordfish
05-23-2007, 04:38 PM
<----- all about my paper.

Im not walking on you, but im damn sure not paying extra taxes for dumb people. This includes interest on credit cards, title loans, late fees, etc.

Jiddy78
05-23-2007, 04:41 PM
<----- all about my paper.

Im not walking on you, butim damn sure not paying extra taxes for dumb people. This includes interest on credit cards, title loans, late fees, etc.

Then you're cheating....

pnkpanther
05-23-2007, 04:46 PM
<----- all about my paper.

Im not walking on you, but im damn sure not paying extra taxes for dumb people. This includes interest on credit cards, title loans, late fees, etc.

credit cards, college yet?

Jiddy78
05-23-2007, 04:48 PM
<----- all about my paper.

Im not walking on you, but im damn sure not paying extra taxes for dumb people. This includes interest on credit cards, title loans, late fees, etc.

What does this mean?

swordfish
05-23-2007, 04:49 PM
This was about a kids right to wear anti-gay or even hateful slogans on his shirt and the supposed hypocrisy of the ACLU for not supporting this.

That said, can you answer the question why gay pride as opposed to straight pride? Every day is straight pride for us. We live in a straight world where being straight is the norm and the expectation. Ever hear about straight bashing? Ever here being straight is disgusting? Ever called straight in a derogatory way? Can you not understand the difference? Remember when they tied up the straight guy behind the truck for being straight?

As too the whole posturing argument, that is often true with gay guys acting straight too. They feel the need to hate out of their own repressed homosexuality. It is too bad that they can't just accept themselves for who they are. Added that up there on your quote where I think it should be.

I will agree that the gay hater prob likes a finger in the butt. Honestly tho hate comes from all sides. Who draws the line for hate. When Coulter called Edwards a faggot does that mean shes hateful or trying to be funny. I guess it depends on whether or not your ashamed of who you are. I was called a "white cracker" once. I was laughing about that so hard. I could have went out and paraded up a bunch of support against the anti-cracker leagues. Instead I just shrug it off and expect those people to soon be incarcerated. I am comfortable with myself and I do not need to go around drumming up support for my lifestyle.

swordfish
05-23-2007, 04:50 PM
credit cards, college yet?

I got a few dollars in student loans unpaid and a house mortgage then its just regular bills.

swordfish
05-23-2007, 04:53 PM
What does this mean?

You asked if I was a financial whore. Actually I am the pimp.

pnkpanther
05-23-2007, 05:03 PM
I will agree that the gay hater prob likes a finger in the butt. Honestly tho hate comes from all sides. Who draws the line for hate. When Coulter called Edwards a faggot does that mean shes hateful or trying to be funny. I guess it depends on whether or not your ashamed of who you are. I was called a "white cracker" once. I was laughing about that so hard. I could have went out and paraded up a bunch of support against the anti-cracker leagues. Instead I just shrug it off and expect those people to soon be incarcerated. I am comfortable with myself and I do not need to go around drumming up support for my lifestyle.

i'm guessing your lifestyle isnt hated on by large segements of the world and in some places illegal. I'm also guessing you never made to feel shame and forced to hide your true self.

And i'd care to guess you never made to feel inferior

Jiddy78
05-23-2007, 07:17 PM
You asked if I was a financial whore. Actually I am the pimp.

You fit the stereotype. I will...but I refuse to succumb to the republican whorism. I prefer the democratic whorism...At least they have little to none to begin with and their type scams me for less....Significantly less...

Jiddy78
05-23-2007, 07:18 PM
I got a few dollars in student loans unpaid and a house mortgage then its just regular bills.

Notice how we separate house mortgage from "regular bills"...and carry the attitude that it is good no matter what...Conditioning baby.

Ed Who?
05-24-2007, 06:56 AM
Hate speech against homosexuals is not a civil liberty IMO. That said, I would think the ACLU has to defend it to an extent. If some dumbass ridiculous waste of space wants to wear a shirt that says "I hate gays", or thinks he is clever by saying "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", I suppose the ACLU should respect his right to be a frickin idiot.

Who defines what is considered hate speech?

Perhaps I consider those who agree with homosexuality to be "hating" traditional Biblical teaching.

pnkpanther
05-24-2007, 09:24 AM
Who defines what is considered hate speech?

Perhaps I consider those who agree with homosexuality to be "hating" traditional Biblical teaching.

thats is a VERY WEAK argument

we may disagree with your values, but we're nto hating on YOU

IBC
05-24-2007, 10:22 AM
I will agree that the gay hater prob likes a finger in the butt. Honestly tho hate comes from all sides. Who draws the line for hate. When Coulter called Edwards a faggot does that mean shes hateful or trying to be funny. I guess it depends on whether or not your ashamed of who you are. I was called a "white cracker" once. I was laughing about that so hard. I could have went out and paraded up a bunch of support against the anti-cracker leagues. Instead I just shrug it off and expect those people to soon be incarcerated. I am comfortable with myself and I do not need to go around drumming up support for my lifestyle.

Do you honestly not see the difference between cracker and faggot?

IBC
05-24-2007, 10:24 AM
Who defines what is considered hate speech?

Perhaps I consider those who agree with homosexuality to be "hating" traditional Biblical teaching.

Lets go Evangelical-bashing? Never hard that one.

Jiddy78
05-24-2007, 11:24 AM
Do you honestly not see the difference between cracker and faggot?

I've concluded that all words with two syllables are synonamous with "faggot." So yes.

Buddy.

IBC
05-24-2007, 11:56 AM
I've concluded that all words with two syllables are synonamous with "faggot." So yes.

Buddy.

Well I disagree, ace.

Jiddy78
05-24-2007, 12:02 PM
Well I disagree, ace.

I'm rubber and you're glue won't work here based on the synonamous rule...So I'll just refrain.

IBC
05-24-2007, 12:03 PM
I'm rubber and you're glue won't work here based on the synonamous rule...So I'll just refrain.

Hey, i am just trying to get mine.

swordfish
05-24-2007, 12:28 PM
Do you honestly not see the difference between cracker and faggot?

I don't see much of a difference between racism and hatred of gays. Everyone is a victim of hatred. If the word faggot is a sore spot with you then maybe you need to reevaluate what you think about words. I personally don't subscribe to name calling. Anyone who gets upset over it has some issue with themselves. If you are comfortable with yourself there is nothing that I nor anyone else can say to make you feel bad. I find that the person who always feels like everyone is "abusing" them actually has a guilty conscience. So if your comfortable with what you call "natural" then don't get upset when someone who is not comfortable with it calls you out. My whole life was riddled with people telling me I am not smart enough, or making the wrong decisions. Now that I am older I just laugh it off. Most of the people talking all the shit have more problems than I do and they just want to feel special by bringing me down.

Misery loves company.

IBC
05-24-2007, 12:36 PM
I don't see much of a difference between racism and hatred of gays. Everyone is a victim of hatred. If the word faggot is a sore spot with you then maybe you need to reevaluate what you think about words. I personally don't subscribe to name calling. Anyone who gets upset over it has some issue with themselves. If you are comfortable with yourself there is nothing that I nor anyone else can say to make you feel bad. I find that the person who always feels like everyone is "abusing" them actually has a guilty conscience. So if your comfortable with what you call "natural" then don't get upset when someone who is not comfortable with it calls you out. My whole life was riddled with people telling me I am not smart enough, or making the wrong decisions. Now that I am older I just laugh it off. Most of the people talking all the shit have more problems than I do and they just want to feel special by bringing me down.

Misery loves company.

I guess I am talking about the difference between "racism" towards white, hetero, Christian males and actual racism. Listening to WASP's talk about their hard-knock life is laughable, and to say they are terribly offended by the word cracker is equally dumb. Look at almost every person in power and they look, act, believe, talk, and think just like you. Congressmen, executives, presidents, judges. Give me a break.

That said, I don't know your life. There could have been bad things in it. If so, I am sorry and don't mean to diminish your suffering.

Jiddy78
05-24-2007, 01:06 PM
I don't see much of a difference between racism and hatred of gays. Everyone is a victim of hatred. If the word faggot is a sore spot with you then maybe you need to reevaluate what you think about words. I personally don't subscribe to name calling. Anyone who gets upset over it has some issue with themselves. If you are comfortable with yourself there is nothing that I nor anyone else can say to make you feel bad. I find that the person who always feels like everyone is "abusing" them actually has a guilty conscience. So if your comfortable with what you call "natural" then don't get upset when someone who is not comfortable with it calls you out. My whole life was riddled with people telling me I am not smart enough, or making the wrong decisions. Now that I am older I just laugh it off. Most of the people talking all the shit have more problems than I do and they just want to feel special by bringing me down.

Misery loves company.


F*ck yeah it does.

Let's do lunch. You pay, of course.