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LSU
05-15-2008, 03:05 PM
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=polar-bears-threatened&print=true


U.S. Protects Polar Bears Under Endangered Species Act
The Interior Department lists the polar bear as a "threatened" species--one at risk of becoming endangered--due to dangerous declines in their sea ice habitat

By Larry Greenemeier

The U.S. Department of the Interior Wednesday listed the polar bear as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) of 1973 based on evidence that the animal's sea ice habitat is shrinking and is likely to continue to do so over the next several decades. Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne, however, made clear several times during a press conference announcing the department's decision that, despite his acknowledgement that the polar bear's sea ice habitat is melting due to global warming, the ESA will not be used as a tool for trying to regulate the greenhouse gas emissions blamed for creating climate change.

The decision was based on evidence that sea ice is vital for polar bear survival, that this sea ice habitat has been reduced, and that this process is likely to continue; if something is not done to change this situation, the polar bear will be extinct within 45 years, Kempthorne said. He pointed to computer models he and his colleagues studied that project a 30 percent decline in sea ice by 2050.

Listing the polar bear as "threatened" means the animal is at risk of becoming an "endangered" species--in danger of extinction--in the foreseeable future if its habitat continues to be destroyed or adversely changed. The listing does not protect the polar bear from being hunted by natives for food and other resources.

Cato Institute environmental studies senior fellow Patrick Michaels disputes the department's science, however. In a statement issued Wednesday, he noted: "This marks the first instance of a species being listed based upon a computer model of future climate from the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. There has been no net warming in the last decade, and scientists recently discovered that it is likely there will be little if any for the next decade." He concludes that the department's listing is based on "obsolete science," making this more of a political than a scientific decision.

Kempthorne noted that decision to list the polar bear as a threatened species was particularly difficult. "The polar bear poses a unique conservation challenge," he said. "With most [species], we can identify a localized threat, but the threat to the polar bear comes from global influences on sea ice."

Interior's decision is intended to afford the polar bear protections without interfering with industry located in the Arctic. "I've accepted that the loss of sea ice, not subsistence [hunting of the animal] or the oil and gas industries, is the reason for the threat to the polar bears," which are already protected by the more stringent Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972, Kempthorne said. Still, he acknowledged, "this decision will not stop global climate change or prevent sea ice from melting."

Although the polar bear's listing does recognize the impact of changing global conditions, the department is quick to point out that it does not assign blame for these conditions on anyone in particular. The ESA "can't make connections between greenhouse gas emissions and the polar bear's status as an endangered species," Dale Hall, director of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, said at the press conference.

U.S. District Court Judge Claudia Wilken in Oakland, Calif., on April 29 ordered the Bush administration to stop dragging its feet on the fate of polar bears and decide by May 15 whether declining sea ice in the Arctic threatens their existence. That ruling was a small victory for a coalition of environmentalists—the Center for Biological Diversity, Greenpeace International and the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC)--which sued to force the Interior Department to decide whether to protect these Arctic predators under the ESA, which it had committed to do by January 9.

Wilken rejected Interior's request to postpone its decision on polar bears until June 30, saying that to do so violates "congressional intent that time is of the essence in listing threatened species," and ruled further that the agency had failed to prove that waiting "will not pose a threat to the polar bear."

The decision took as long as it did, Kempthorne said, because of the large amount of data that he and his colleagues had to study and debate before making a ruling. "You simply have to look at the best available science on this particular species," Kempthorne said, adding that he worked with the Fish & Wildlife Service and the U.S. Geological Survey to make his decision.

Others accused Interior of delaying its listing of the polar bear as an endangered species until after business deals had been done in Alaska. "The Minerals Management Service was set to finalize the sales of leases for exploratory oil and gas drilling off the coast of Alaska," says Andrew Wetzler, director of the NRDC's Endangered Species Project. This would have subjected those lease sales, such as the sale of oil and gas leases covering nearly 46,000 square miles (120, 000 square kilometers) in the Chukchi Sea off the northwest coast of Alaska, to additional regulatory oversight, he added.

Kempthorne flatly denied at the press conference that he waited until after the drilling jobs were handed out before making his decision. "No, we did not hold off on the polar bear decision until the leases had been awarded, he said.

According to the World Wildlife Fund, some polar bears are already starving as a result of changing conditions in the Arctic. And the U.S. Geological Survey recently reported that polar bear populations could drop precipitously in coming decades as the sea ice they rely on to hunt recedes as the globe warms. This past September the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colo., which collects polar and ice information for the government, announced that there was less sea ice covering the Arctic Ocean than at any time since satellite measurements began in 1979.

Critics of designating the animals as endangered charge that such a move is merely a smoke screen for efforts to stem global warming, such as curbs on greenhouse gas emissions. "What has become clear through this heavily litigated process is that listing the polar bear as a threatened species is not about protecting the polar bear but rather advancing a particular political agenda," Sen. James Inhofe (R–Okla.) said in a statement. Inhofe has previously called global warming "the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people."

Rep. Edward J. Markey (D–Mass.), chairman of the House Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming, accused the Bush administration of not going far enough to protect the polar bear, noting that the Interior Department included exemptions to the decision that do not address the reason the sea ice is melting and allowing oil drilling to continue in a major polar bear habitat. The administration "simultaneously announced a rule aimed at allowing oil and gas drilling in the Arctic to continue unchecked even in the face of the polar bear's threatened extinction," he said in a statement issued Wednesday. "Essentially, the administration is giving a gift to Big Oil, and short shrift to the polar bear."

LSU
05-15-2008, 03:13 PM
shit, forgot this

**Disclaimer** This article contains scientific views. If you have a hard time reconciling that scientists have a broader knowledge base of science than you do, and may use said knowledge base to make predictions, assumptions, or conclusions that you may or may not agree with, you may experience excessive foot stomping and general irritability.

KinjaKahn
05-15-2008, 06:08 PM
forgot this too

Scientists who think they have a lock on comprehension are pretty much imbeciles.

LSU
05-15-2008, 07:50 PM
Scientists who think they have a lock on comprehension are pretty much imbeciles.


Huh. The non-scientists must really be dumbfucks then.

Roy Munson
05-15-2008, 08:46 PM
Huh. The non-scientists must really be dumbfucks then.
Its the internet, everybody is an expert on everything they talk about.

ryr8828
05-15-2008, 09:57 PM
**Disclaimer** This article contains scientific views. If you have a hard time reconciling that scientists have a broader knowledge base of science than you do, and may use said knowledge base to make predictions, assumptions, or conclusions that you may or may not agree with, you may experience excessive foot stomping and general irritability.

Since we have a small readrship here I don't mind sharing this in open forum. You're really adding nothing here except your primary role as an irritant. You are to the partisan patriot as Fan was to sports boards. I started to post something like this yesterday when I saw you downgrading a poster who is 100 times a better journalist than you will ever be, but I deleted it.

If you have a hard on for what happened after you broke the rules at the other site, too bad. If you have something intelligent to add, please do. If not then lay off the smartass and demeaning bullshit or leave, or I will handle that for you. It seems to be all you do lately and it's tiresome.

LSU
05-15-2008, 10:14 PM
**Disclaimer** This article contains scientific views. If you have a hard time reconciling that scientists have a broader knowledge base of science than you do, and may use said knowledge base to make predictions, assumptions, or conclusions that you may or may not agree with, you may experience excessive foot stomping and general irritability.

Since we have a small readrship here I don't mind sharing this in open forum. You're really adding nothing here except your primary role as an irritant. You are to the partisan patriot as Fan was to sports boards. I started to post something like this yesterday when I saw you downgrading a poster who is 100 times a better journalist than you will ever be, but I deleted it.

If you have a hard on for what happened after you broke the rules at the other site, too bad. If you have something intelligent to add, please do. If not then lay off the smartass and demeaning bullshit or leave, or I will handle that for you. It seems to be all you do lately and it's tiresome.


Oh, that's great.


Hey look. I tried to qualm any thoughts of "If you have a hard on for what happened after you broke the rules at the other site, too bad." in a PM to you shortly after I resumed posting.

Guess what. I got NOTHING back. IF I would have gotten a response, you would've heard that I have no problem with any warnings, losing my mod there and here, or any of it. I know my comment was completely uncalled for. Such is life. I've told you for a long time that you could remove my mods as I'm pretty useless as a mod, and wouldn't really do much moderating. Sorry if that's a disappointment, but if I had truly just been broken up over it, I would've just stopped posting.

But now that that is out there, has this been the reason that you've been a complete dick to me since I came back? Hell, every time before that it seemed you and I could go back and forth with a mutual understanding that it's just a bunch of words, nothing personal, nothing serious. But then you gave me the warning, took my mods, and then acted like EVERYTHING I did was some form of protest. It wasn't.

Perhaps a simple reply to my PM months ago, or maybe just a PM asking me WTF is wrong with me could've cleared this up long ago.

But no, it bottles up, and then unlike any non-rightie, the topic is broached out in the open.

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I'm still not mad about it. Perhaps you shouldn't be either.

But don't expect me to back down from defending my FUCKING PROFESSION to those that always seem to want to spit on it.

If doing that is against the rules, let me know now and I'll gladly depart.

And I'm assuming the journalist you mean is Sunshine. I haven't read any of her stuff as it's all Phillie stuff. But I agree without reading it. She'll probably eat my lunch when it comes to journalism. I can accept that, you know why? Because she is a journalist. She spends time journalizing. She's obviously got much more than a leg up on me in that category. Of course, I've never criticized her journalism, or her abilities.

If my snarky comments are a problem, you as well as ANYBODY should know that all you need to do is say "hey dickhead, I can take shit with the best of them, but sometimes, YOU'RE TOO MUCH." And my response is "my apologies, it was not my aim to make you uncomfortable, I'll try to lay off. But know that none of it is personal, I'm glad you're here."

Or, if she didn't feel comfortable confronting me about it and mentioned something to you, Roy, or Vegas, then the same thing applies. PM to explain what's going on, and I'll oblige.

Have I ever not done so?


I can't fucking read minds.

I assume that when you don't reply to my PMs, that there's no issues. I assume that if Sunshine isn't getting extremely terse with me that she's just rolling along just fine.

Unless I hear otherwise, I continue to do what I do.


But, as it stands, I'm pretty sure you have your mind made up about me, so this explanation was probably all for naught.

Too bad.

But at least I tried.

ryr8828
05-15-2008, 10:26 PM
Oh, that's great.


Hey look. I tried to qualm any thoughts of "If you have a hard on for what happened after you broke the rules at the other site, too bad." in a PM to you shortly after I resumed posting.

Guess what. I got NOTHING back. IF I would have gotten a response, you would've heard that I have no problem with any warnings, losing my mod there and here, or any of it. I know my comment was completely uncalled for. Such is life. I've told you for a long time that you could remove my mods as I'm pretty useless as a mod, and wouldn't really do much moderating. Sorry if that's a disappointment, but if I had truly just been broken up over it, I would've just stopped posting.

But now that that is out there, has this been the reason that you've been a complete dick to me since I came back? Hell, every time before that it seemed you and I could go back and forth with a mutual understanding that it's just a bunch of words, nothing personal, nothing serious. But then you gave me the warning, took my mods, and then acted like EVERYTHING I did was some form of protest. It wasn't.

Perhaps a simple reply to my PM months ago, or maybe just a PM asking me WTF is wrong with me could've cleared this up long ago.

But no, it bottles up, and then unlike any non-rightie, the topic is broached out in the open.

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I'm still not mad about it. Perhaps you shouldn't be either.

But don't expect me to back down from defending my FUCKING PROFESSION to those that always seem to want to spit on it.

If doing that is against the rules, let me know now and I'll gladly depart.

And I'm assuming the journalist you mean is Sunshine. I haven't read any of her stuff as it's all Phillie stuff. But I agree without reading it. She'll probably eat my lunch when it comes to journalism. I can accept that, you know why? Because she is a journalist. She spends time journalizing. She's obviously got much more than a leg up on me in that category. Of course, I've never criticized her journalism, or her abilities.

If my snarky comments are a problem, you as well as ANYBODY should know that all you need to do is say "hey dickhead, I can take shit with the best of them, but sometimes, YOU'RE TOO MUCH." And my response is "my apologies, it was not my aim to make you uncomfortable, I'll try to lay off. But know that none of it is personal, I'm glad you're here."

Or, if she didn't feel comfortable confronting me about it and mentioned something to you, Roy, or Vegas, then the same thing applies. PM to explain what's going on, and I'll oblige.

Have I ever not done so?


I can't fucking read minds.

I assume that when you don't reply to my PMs, that there's no issues. I assume that if Sunshine isn't getting extremely terse with me that she's just rolling along just fine.

Unless I hear otherwise, I continue to do what I do.


But, as it stands, I'm pretty sure you have your mind made up about me, so this explanation was probably all for naught.

Too bad.

But at least I tried.

No one has complained to me about you. This is all my perception.

I've enjoyed discourse with you. I don't remember a pm, I probably was busy and forgot it. Since it's all my perception, it just seems to me that you've been more of a dick here the last month or so.

By now it's probably no secret that I'm unhappy with both of my websites. They lack debate and offer mostly smartass comments. I'm not even talking humorous comments which I love, but worthless smartass comments. When I get the feeling that one of our best writers is getting picked on, I get a little touchy.

I know you could probably offer up a page of smartass comments by me, so don't waste your time. I'm trying to add good posters and not lose any, that's my point. When I sense someone is desenchanted with the site and going out of their way to make someone else uncomfortable I feel I should do something.

I'm not always right, but I am always trying to improve the site.

Roy Munson
05-15-2008, 10:29 PM
No one has complained to me about you. This is all my perception.

I've enjoyed discourse with you. I don't remember a pm, I probably was busy and forgot it. Since it's all my perception, it just seems to me that you've been more of a dick here the last month or so.

By now it's probably no secret that I'm unhappy with both of my websites. They lack debate and offer mostly smartass comments. I'm not even talking humorous comments which I love, but worthless smartass comments. When I get the feeling that one of our best writers is getting picked on, I get a little touchy.

I know you could probably offer up a page of smartass comments by me, so don't waste your time. I'm trying to add good posters and not lose any, that's my point. When I sense someone is desenchanted with the site and going out of their way to make someone else uncomfortable I feel I should do something.

I'm not always right, but I am always trying to improve the site.
Football season will be here soon enough.

LSU
05-15-2008, 10:35 PM
No one has complained to me about you. This is all my perception.

I've enjoyed discourse with you. I don't remember a pm, I probably was busy and forgot it. Since it's all my perception, it just seems to me that you've been more of a dick here the last month or so.

By now it's probably no secret that I'm unhappy with both of my websites. They lack debate and offer mostly smartass comments. I'm not even talking humorous comments which I love, but worthless smartass comments. When I get the feeling that one of our best writers is getting picked on, I get a little touchy.

I know you could probably offer up a page of smartass comments by me, so don't waste your time. I'm trying to add good posters and not lose any, that's my point. When I sense someone is desenchanted with the site and going out of their way to make someone else uncomfortable I feel I should do something.

I'm not always right, but I am always trying to improve the site.



So does that mean I don't have to take my ball and go home?

Look, many times I'm trying to talk good stuff in science. But how easy is it to actually have a good conversation when you, Ed, or Kinja turn it to a "science is phony" discussion?

Honestly. In any political discussion, the points of "bush is retarded and the worst president ever" are discouraged and pointing out why is encouraged.

Yet when it comes to any of my science stuff, all it turns into is scientists are arrogant, they're only spreading propaganda, etc.

It's no different to unsubstantiated rhetoric about the right or the left.

But like I said, I can't read your mind. For as long as I've been posting politics with you it's been partisan. Strictly partisan. I can't automatically know that you're actually looking for honest intellectual debate now.


Maybe you should make me a supermod.


Oh, I probably need to remind you that even if I JOKE about it, I'm never seriously asking for a mod or supermod position. NEVER.



Hell, I even tried to extend an olive branch not that long ago. It may have been in this thread, I don't know. But it was when I was giving examples of plumbers knowing more about plumbing than CPAs. Eventually you said "I'm not a plumber" and my reply was "yeah, but you lay a lot of pipe, don't you?"

If assuming sexual studness isn't a hand extended in buddydom, I don't know what is.

LSU
05-15-2008, 10:36 PM
Football season will be here soon enough.


I might post more on sports-boards then.

None of the conversation there is all that interesting it seems anymore. I can't put my finger on it.

I know there are a lot of people that I don't enjoy reading all that much, so maybe that just annoys me.

ryr8828
05-15-2008, 10:39 PM
So does that mean I don't have to take my ball and go home?

Look, many times I'm trying to talk good stuff in science. But how easy is it to actually have a good conversation when you, Ed, or Kinja turn it to a "science is phony" discussion?

Honestly. In any political discussion, the points of "bush is retarded and the worst president ever" are discouraged and pointing out why is encouraged.

Yet when it comes to any of my science stuff, all it turns into is scientists are arrogant, they're only spreading propaganda, etc.

It's no different to unsubstantiated rhetoric about the right or the left.

But like I said, I can't read your mind. For as long as I've been posting politics with you it's been partisan. Strictly partisan. I can't automatically know that you're actually looking for honest intellectual debate now.


Maybe you should make me a supermod.


Oh, I probably need to remind you that even if I JOKE about it, I'm never seriously asking for a mod or supermod position. NEVER.



Hell, I even tried to extend an olive branch not that long ago. It may have been in this thread, I don't know. But it was when I was giving examples of plumbers knowing more about plumbing than CPAs. Eventually you said "I'm not a plumber" and my reply was "yeah, but you lay a lot of pipe, don't you?"

If assuming sexual studness isn't a hand extended in buddydom, I don't know what is.

Sorry, I didn't see that. I've missed a lot. I've been real busy.

BTW, not as much as I used to, but I appreciate the thought.

LSU
05-15-2008, 10:41 PM
Sorry, I didn't see that. I've missed a lot. I've been real busy.

BTW, not as much as I used to, but I appreciate the thought.



Yes, I think about you.

*winks*

LSU
05-15-2008, 10:43 PM
Alright Ryr, here's the deal.

I will agree to leave the **disclaimers** out of posts if you at least TRY to understand that the article above is not meant to be

scientist >>>>>> Ryr

ryr8828
05-15-2008, 10:53 PM
Alright Ryr, here's the deal.

I will agree to leave the **disclaimers** out of posts if you at least TRY to understand that the article above is not meant to be

scientist >>>>>> Ryr


Common sense>>>>>>>>>>>nutty professors

Roy Munson
05-15-2008, 10:55 PM
I might post more on sports-boards then.

None of the conversation there is all that interesting it seems anymore. I can't put my finger on it.

I know there are a lot of people that I don't enjoy reading all that much, so maybe that just annoys me.
The more interesting conversations seem to be over here.

LSU
05-15-2008, 11:00 PM
Common sense>>>>>>>>>>>nutty professors

Frick. We're in the wrong thread for the article above to have commonality with this. You know what thread I'm talking about.


But common sense isn't always right. Not to mention your "common" sense isn't the same as the next guy's.

LSU
05-15-2008, 11:01 PM
The more interesting conversations seem to be over here.



Common sense tells me that's a direct result of yours truly.

LSU
05-15-2008, 11:01 PM
Common sense>>>>>>>>>>>nutty professors



Oh, and I take this as "disclaimers stay."

Hoorah.

Roy Munson
05-15-2008, 11:06 PM
Oh, and I take this as "disclaimers stay."

Hoorah.
disclaimers = Clue:

LSU = Kinja?

LSU
05-15-2008, 11:09 PM
disclaimers = Clue:

LSU = Kinja?



Maybe in an alternate universe.

domenick2x
05-16-2008, 10:16 AM
disclaimers = Clue:

LSU = Kinja?
You need to be slapped. Hard. Twice.

Roy Munson
05-16-2008, 11:17 AM
You need to be slapped. Hard. Twice.
I'm your huckleberry.

KinjaKahn
05-16-2008, 06:54 PM
Huh. The non-scientists must really be dumbfucks then.

So it is factual that all highly intelligent people must join the cult of math and matter?

LSU
05-16-2008, 07:08 PM
So it is factual that all highly intelligent people must join the cult of math and matter?



If you say so.