Clue to autism cause?

[LSU]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=vaccine-injury-case-offer&print=true



Vaccine Injury Case Offers a Clue to the Causes of Autism
Could a group of disorders involving the "power plants of the cell" explain why some vaccinated children develop autism but the vast majority don't?

By Nikhil Swaminathan

When the parents of Hannah Poling, a nine-year-old, Athens, Ga., girl who was diagnosed with autism just after the age of two, announced that a federal vaccine injury court had awarded them a settlement, the case reignited a decade-old debate about whether vaccines could potentially trigger the disorder. But what was somewhat lost in much of the coverage of the case was a little-known condition that the court said was aggravated by the vaccine, and which gave Hannah the features of autism.

That little known condition—"mitochondrial disorder"—involves the parts of cells frequently referred to as their "power plants," because they turn sugar into energy. Mitochondria are found in all tissues and organs in the body, and when they do not work properly they can cause or worsen diseases from diabetes to brain disorders. Jay Gargus, a specialist in human genetics and metabolism at the University of California, Irvine, says mitochondrial disorders are a bit like an electrical brownout: "As the electrical voltage starts falling, different appliances will start to fail," he says. "First, the television might turn off, then the lights might go off."

In July 2000, at 19 months of age, Poling received five vaccines containing nine immunizations—including inoculations against rubella (German measles), mumps and chicken pox. The girl had been developing normally, according to her parents—her father, Jon, is a Johns Hopkins–trained, practicing neurologist, her mother is an attorney and registered nurse—but in the months after the shots, she developed a fever and litany of other symptoms: diarrhea, appetite loss and intermittent screaming. A pediatric neurologist examining her in February 2001 later noted that she had lost some of the speech she had previously acquired, was no longer making eye contact, and was no longer sleeping through the night.

In its November 2007 decision the vaccine court said that the inoculations Poling received in July 2000 worsened her underlying mitochondrial disorder (which was discovered nearly a year later) and led to brain disease that appeared as symptoms of autism.

Theoretically, that makes sense: David Holtzman, a pediatric neurologist at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, notes that the brain is particularly dependent on the energy supplied by the mitochondria. "What's surprising and hard to specifically understand is why it's so characteristically affecting language function and social function," he adds. (In addition to symptoms of autism, Poling also reportedly had muscle weakness, difficulty with motor coordination, and a host of gastrointestinal problems.)

So how common are mitochondrial disorders? Could they explain why some children who receive vaccines develop autism, but the vast majority do not?

In an opinion piece in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Poling's father cited a 2005 study by a Portuguese research team that estimates as many as one in five kids diagnosed with autism also have a mitochondrial disorders. He notes that such a rate "does not qualify as 'rare.' In fact, mitochondrial dysfunction may be the most common medical condition associated with autism."

Hannah's disorder is likely due to a rare mutation in her DNA. Most of the DNA responsible for mitochondria is inherited from mothers, because mitochondrial genes are carried in the egg but not sperm. Salvatore DiMauro, a mitochondria expert at Columbia University, notes that the point mutation mentioned in Poling's case history--published in the Journal of Child Neurology--would imply that both she and her mother carried the genetic variation in all their tissues. So, he says, "you would expect to see the same results" in both the mother and the daughter. But Poling's mother, Terry, who is an attorney and a registered nurse, is not autistic.

That suggests the genetic defect responsible for Poling's condition is part of her nuclear DNA, which is separate from the mitochondrial variety, says DiMauro. This means that, scientifically, from the documents presented in the vaccine court, the Polings did not make a case that deserved compensation. (Attempts to contact Jon Poling about DiMauro's concern went unanswered; however, he agreed that his daughter's causative genetic defect was likely not in her mitochondrial DNA in an open letter on the blog NeuroLogica.)

John Shoffner, a mitochondrial disease expert who runs a laboratory in Atlanta, agrees. In at study of 40 patients with autism—including Poling, he found that two thirds had muscle weakness. If muscle weakness is seen early on in children, it may be a tip-off to an underlying mitochondrial disorder that could cause autism, because muscles are heavily dependent on mitochondria as an energy source. He also believes that the new work—he presented preliminary results last week at the American Academy of Neurology Conference in Chicago—will help explain why some children, such as Poling, experience worsening symptoms as a result of a fever.

He notes that the route from the vaccine to the child's autism was by no means direct. Hannah's mitochondria were already underperforming, so when she developed a fever from her vaccine, the increased energy requirements likely pushed them past their thresholds. A fever caused by an ear infection or the flu would likely have triggered the autism symptoms if they occurred before or between the ages of 24 and 36 months, he says, which is when classic, regressive autism, which affects one third of sufferers, usually appears.

Shoffner notes that parents and advocates looking to impugn vaccines as triggers for autism—or mitochondrial disease—need direct, not just circumstantial, evidence. "If you were sitting in a waiting room full of people and one person suddenly fell ill or died or something," he says, "would you arrest the person sitting right next to them?"

Jon Poling, says Shoffner, has been "muddying the waters" with some of his comments. "There is no precedent for that type of thinking and no data for that type of thinking," Shoffner says.

[domenick2x]

Shoffner notes that parents and advocates looking to impugn vaccines as triggers for autism—or mitochondrial disease—need direct, not just circumstantial, evidence. "If you were sitting in a waiting room full of people and one person suddenly fell ill or died or something," he says, "would you arrest the person sitting right next to them?"

Well, if that person had just spit in the eye of the one who collapsed, I might.

[hannitykillspuppies]

is this like a kinja clue?

[Jiddy78]

Indirect is good enough for me.

Still not doing the vaccines....

[Smoke681]

is this like a kinja clue?

Another mighty contribution.


I had a discussion with my sister (her son's high on the scale) about this topic/situation this weekend. THis article gave me a lot more info. Thanks for that.

[LSU]

Indirect is good enough for me.

Still not doing the vaccines....


Just curious as I have not done this, but have you looked into the number of people that don't get shots, but still develop autism?

[KinjaKahn]

Interesting, and seems like great news for Vaccine producers.

[Jiddy78]

Just curious as I have not done this, but have you looked into the number of people that don't get shots, but still develop autism?

I'll ask wifey tonight...She tends to the secret cabinet of conspiracy data.

[Jiddy78]

Interesting, and seems like great news for Vaccine producers.

Scrooge McDuck-like profits isn't enough great news? Whores.

[BambinoBear]

Just curious as I have not done this, but have you looked into the number of people that don't get shots, but still develop autism?
Very good question.

[LSU]

Interesting, and seems like great news for Vaccine producers.


I think there are enough boner drugs out there that the drug companies could take a hit in the vaccine department.

Just more guys sitting around singing "Viva Viagra" during NFL games to sell more product.

With that said, drug companies are unethical pigs. I do not support them.

But I am torn with vaccines because I do believe in them. In the current state, I'm alright with some people not getting them. Follows principles of "herd management" a little closely. Treat the majority and likely the whole will be fine.

[domenick2x]

Just curious as I have not done this, but have you looked into the number of people that don't get shots, but still develop autism?
I read an article that noted a non-scientific survey of the Amish showed that the only incidences of autism were a pair of twins (adopted, and vaccinated) and one man with heavy exposure to mercury.

I've also read of a concern about aluminum in vaccines.

[LSU]

I read an article that noted a non-scientific survey of the Amish showed that the only incidences of autism were a pair of twins (adopted, and vaccinated) and one man with heavy exposure to mercury.

I've also read of a concern about aluminum in vaccines.




Interesting. But that could have any number of things to do with the lifestyle of the Amish. Less chemical exposure in nearly... everything.

[KinjaKahn]

I read an article that noted a non-scientific survey of the Amish showed that the only incidences of autism were a pair of twins (adopted, and vaccinated) and one man with heavy exposure to mercury.

I've also read of a concern about aluminum in vaccines.

Which will surely get the survey disregarded by the Mystical Cult of Math and Matter.

[LSU]

Which will surely get the survey disregarded by the Mystical Cult of Math and Matter.

strike 1

[KinjaKahn]

strike 1ROFL

[fahvra]

I think there are enough boner drugs out there that the drug companies could take a hit in the vaccine department.

Just more guys sitting around singing "Viva Viagra" during NFL games to sell more product.

With that said, drug companies are unethical pigs. I do not support them.

But I am torn with vaccines because I do believe in them. In the current state, I'm alright with some people not getting them. Follows principles of "herd management" a little closely. Treat the majority and likely the whole will be fine.


its tough, Ive had many a sleepless nights over this. vaccines themselves are great, its just the schedule they have you follow with your child is ridculous. its like getting hit with a truck.

im convinced that the next time we go in Im telling them to space the shit out better, its just too much at once. it makes you worry if your child hasnt hit a certain milestone and you wonder if it was the vaccines because most parents will say everything was fine one day and different the next(after the shots). shit freaks me out.

[fahvra]

I read an article that noted a non-scientific survey of the Amish showed that the only incidences of autism were a pair of twins (adopted, and vaccinated) and one man with heavy exposure to mercury.

I've also read of a concern about aluminum in vaccines.

among a hundred other things a baby shouldnt have shot into them.

[hannitykillspuppies]

Another mighty contribution.


I had a discussion with my sister (her son's high on the scale) about this topic/situation this weekend. THis article gave me a lot more info. Thanks for that.
sorry i can't overtly say i would kill someone if it were legal. only the highest intellects can come up with those doozies.

[LSU]

its tough, Ive had many a sleepless nights over this. vaccines themselves are great, its just the schedule they have you follow with your child is ridculous. its like getting hit with a truck.

im convinced that the next time we go in Im telling them to space the shit out better, its just too much at once. it makes you worry if your child hasnt hit a certain milestone and you wonder if it was the vaccines because most parents will say everything was fine one day and different the next(after the shots). shit freaks me out.



My experience has been 1 or 2 every 3 month, except between month 6 and month 12.

[fahvra]

My experience has been 1 or 2 every 3 month, except between month 6 and month 12.

its a horrible feeling.

[LSU]

its a horrible feeling.

Meh. The crying it all that bugs me. And it's done quite quickly.

After that, I don't even think about it. Maybe a small fever starts, but that goes down with some tylenol. I haven't thought twice about it yet.

[LSU]

My experience has been 1 or 2 every 3 month, except between month 6 and month 12.

Now that I think about it, it may have been more frequent the first couple months...maybe once a month until 3 months or something.

[domenick2x]

its tough, Ive had many a sleepless nights over this. vaccines themselves are great, its just the schedule they have you follow with your child is ridculous. its like getting hit with a truck.

im convinced that the next time we go in Im telling them to space the shit out better, its just too much at once. it makes you worry if your child hasnt hit a certain milestone and you wonder if it was the vaccines because most parents will say everything was fine one day and different the next(after the shots). shit freaks me out.
We're controlling the schedule ourselves with our kids (and the one to be).

We work with the pediatrician and his staff to get the vaccines as we choose, based on reactivity and the thing they are protecting us from (the more deadly and the more common, the more likely we get the shot early).

The federally suggested schedule is to make it 'easy' to get them all in, including ones that aren't necessary for a decade or so.

[MTVike]

Just curious as I have not done this, but have you looked into the number of people that don't get shots, but still develop autism?


I believe the Thimerosal-vaccine link has been mostly debunked at least. Diagnoses of Autistic Specturm Disorder have increased even with the cessation of the use of it as a preservative for vaccines.

I believe strongly in a genetic link, although there must be other triggering factors, too.

[LSU]

I believe strongly in a genetic link, although there must be other triggering factors, too.


Like gayness.

[MTVike]

Like gayness.

Gayness as in becoming a Packer fan, no.

Homosexuality as a mainly inherited condition, yes.

[Jiddy78]

I believe the Thimerosal-vaccine link has been mostly debunked at least. Diagnoses of Autistic Specturm Disorder have increased even with the cessation of the use of it as a preservative for vaccines.

I believe strongly in a genetic link, although there must be other triggering factors, too.


There is no genetic or life link to my type of cancer...Not one...Nobody can tell me why...But I know a sh*t ton that got it ride road bikes....I had just picked up riding about 6 months before I found out...Is it connected? Maybe...Maybe not....But I'm not testing it....Problem with vaccines is there is similar observation and data...but you can't opt out like you do just to not ride a bicycle....You know "in case sh*t"....One can catch a lot of grief for opting out of vaccines...Why is THAT? The answer (or nonanswer) of that last question is why I'm leaning away from any vaccines....

[MTVike]

There is no genetic or life link to my type of cancer...Not one...Nobody can tell me why...But I know a sh*t ton that got it ride road bikes....I had just picked up riding about 6 months before I found out...Is it connected? Maybe...Maybe not....But I'm not testing it....Problem with vaccines is there is similar observation and data...but you can't opt out like you do just to not ride a bicycle....You know "in case sh*t"....One can catch a lot of grief for opting out of vaccines...Why is THAT? The answer (or nonanswer) of that last question is why I'm leaning away towards any vaccines....

Measles, mumps, small pox....


Reason I say genetic is first hand experience. Some of the ASD kids I work with act a lot like their parents, usually the father, and this is typically not learned-type behavior.

[Jiddy78]

Measles, mumps, small pox....


Reason I say genetic is first hand experience. Some of the ASD kids I work with act a lot like their parents, usually the father, and this is typically not learned-type behavior.

Chicken Pox Vaccine requirement makes me question them all....That's a bunch of balogna....There's no precedent there...and it makes me wonder just what kind of danger there still is out there for the rest...on top of a potential correlation to another disease anyway...

[LSU]

There is no genetic or life link to my type of cancer...Not one...Nobody can tell me why...But I know a sh*t ton that got it ride road bikes....I had just picked up riding about 6 months before I found out...Is it connected? Maybe...Maybe not....But I'm not testing it....Problem with vaccines is there is similar observation and data...but you can't opt out like you do just to not ride a bicycle....You know "in case sh*t"....One can catch a lot of grief for opting out of vaccines...Why is THAT? The answer (or nonanswer) of that last question is why I'm leaning away from any vaccines....


...currently known


as for the grief of opting out of vaccines, that's the parents' choice. I don't think it will have ill effects unless many many more people start opting out. The herd management part I brought up earlier...

Because other kids are being vaccinated at a good clip, the kids not vaccinated have a much better shot of not being exposed to a disease. If the vaccinations fade out and one kid catches something and it spreads, well... It spreads.

[domenick2x]

There is no genetic or life link to my type of cancer...Not one...Nobody can tell me why...But I know a sh*t ton that got it ride road bikes....I had just picked up riding about 6 months before I found out...Is it connected? Maybe...Maybe not....But I'm not testing it....Problem with vaccines is there is similar observation and data...but you can't opt out like you do just to not ride a bicycle....You know "in case sh*t"....One can catch a lot of grief for opting out of vaccines...Why is THAT? The answer (or nonanswer) of that last question is why I'm leaning away from any vaccines....
The grief one catches is from others who feel that you not immunizing puts them at severe risk....

[domenick2x]

Chicken Pox Vaccine requirement makes me question them all....That's a bunch of balogna....There's no precedent there...and it makes me wonder just what kind of danger there still is out there for the rest...on top of a potential correlation to another disease anyway...
Check into how long kids miss school due to the Pox, and correlate that to federal funds.

[LSU]

Chicken Pox Vaccine requirement makes me question them all....That's a bunch of balogna....There's no precedent there...and it makes me wonder just what kind of danger there still is out there for the rest...on top of a potential correlation to another disease anyway...



Well, probably something like 5/12,000,000 kids die of chicken pox, so...

I didn't know there was a requirement for it. We got ours yesterday (I have previously thought it was unnecessary, but the doc seemed pretty confident in it). I'm sure we could've opted out of it had we really wanted to.

[LSU]

The grief one catches is from others who feel that you not immunizing puts them at severe risk....

Which isn't true as long as their vaccinated...

and the vaccine works...

[LSU]

Check into how long kids miss school due to the Pox, and correlate that to federal funds.


Huh?

The schools will get their money even if a week of school is missed, will it not?

The one reason I can see for the Varicella vaccine is just in case you don't get it as a kid.

It's nasty to get it as an adult. Much worse than when you're a kid.

[domenick2x]

Which isn't true as long as their vaccinated...

and the vaccine works...
Vaccinated does not equal immunized.

Herd principles.

[LSU]

Vaccinated does not equal immunized.

Herd principles.



You know what I mean.

[Jiddy78]

Vaccinated does not equal immunized.

Herd principles.

Wifey was trying to explain to me that the chicken pox vaccine doesn't guarantee you past 30 or some such....which means you may get it at an older age after being vaccinated at a younger, instead of just having immunity from it being had already....Supposedly that is much worse for you.

[domenick2x]

Huh?

The schools will get their money even if a week of school is missed, will it not?

The one reason I can see for the Varicella vaccine is just in case you don't get it as a kid.

It's nasty to get it as an adult. Much worse than when you're a kid.
Had it both as a kid and as an adult, and I agree 1000%.

[domenick2x]

Wifey was trying to explain to me that the chicken pox vaccine doesn't guarantee you past 30 or some such....which means you may get it at an older age after being vaccinated at a younger, instead of just having immunity from it being had already....Supposedly that is much worse for you.
You have NO idea.

Brutal.

[domenick2x]

You know what I mean.
I know, I'm just trying to be clearer for some of the others following along.

[LSU]

Wifey was trying to explain to me that the chicken pox vaccine doesn't guarantee you past 30 or some such....which means you may get it at an older age after being vaccinated at a younger, instead of just having immunity from it being had already....Supposedly that is much worse for you.


I asked the doctor if one could still develop shingles from the vaccine. She believed you could. Which means the virus maintains itself in the body.

I don't know how long they've been giving the vaccine, though, so how much they know about it 30 years later is questionable, perhaps.

[domenick2x]

I asked the doctor if one could still develop shingles from the vaccine. She believed you could. Which means the virus maintains itself in the body.

I don't know how long they've been giving the vaccine, though, so how much they know about it 30 years later is questionable, perhaps.
My kids pediatrician says that there's some belief that it has only 10 yr efficacy.

[LSU]

My kids pediatrician says that there's some belief that it has only 10 yr efficacy.


Is that with the first vaccination or with the booster? Doc said the kid will get a booster at 4 years for longer protection, and that it was relatively new to do that.

[Jiddy78]

I asked the doctor if one could still develop shingles from the vaccine. She believed you could. Which means the virus maintains itself in the body.

I don't know how long they've been giving the vaccine, though, so how much they know about it 30 years later is questionable, perhaps.

All I know is I've had my chicken pox and I've got the scars from scratchin' 'em to prove it...Bring it on Colonel...Got nothin' on me.

[domenick2x]

Is that with the first vaccination or with the booster? Doc said the kid will get a booster at 4 years for longer protection, and that it was relatively new to do that.
That was the original. How many shots should my kid get to protect her from a common childhood ailment?

There is a risk of death due to Chickenpox....

[LSU]

That was the original. How many shots should my kid get to protect her from a common childhood ailment?

There is a risk of death due to Chickenpox....


There is a risk of death in waking up.

As for the number of shots, couldn't tell you.

Lots of shots have boosters, though. You could forego them if you choose.

[domenick2x]

There is a risk of death in waking up.

As for the number of shots, couldn't tell you.

Lots of shots have boosters, though. You could forego them if you choose.
Agreed. My point was that, prior to the Varicella vaccine, about 100 people per year died. Half of them adults (who usually got the pox from their unvaccinated kids), none of those with complicating factors.

Ye gods. In the grand scheme of things, why the concern about varicella? Because Big Pharma can make some money.

[LSU]

Agreed. My point was that, prior to the Varicella vaccine, about 100 people per year died. Half of them adults (who usually got the pox from their unvaccinated kids), none of those with complicating factors.

Ye gods. In the grand scheme of things, why the concern about varicella? Because Big Pharma can make some money.


On the surface, I agree. But like I said, big pharma is going to make assloads of money with or without varicella vaccination.

Another potential thing to look at is the parents. Back in the day, Mom stayed home and everything was honky dory.

Now with 2 income families, mom or dad has to stay home for a week with a kid with any childhood sickness, unless another viable option is available. Daycare is not likely an option there.

I know for my wife and I, when I finish and can't work on my own schedule (i.e., me work nights) that will be an issue. Now it's likely that my wife or I can easily get the time off because we'd have good jobs that wouldn't move on without us. You're in HR, is that generally the case that an employer will give time off to take care of chickenpox kids?

[domenick2x]

On the surface, I agree. But like I said, big pharma is going to make assloads of money with or without varicella vaccination.

Another potential thing to look at is the parents. Back in the day, Mom stayed home and everything was honky dory.

Now with 2 income families, mom or dad has to stay home for a week with a kid with any childhood sickness, unless another viable option is available. Daycare is not likely an option there.

I know for my wife and I, when I finish and can't work on my own schedule (i.e., me work nights) that will be an issue. Now it's likely that my wife or I can easily get the time off because we'd have good jobs that wouldn't move on without us. You're in HR, is that generally the case that an employer will give time off to take care of chickenpox kids?
That can swing from one employer to another.

Generally speaking, nonexempt employees can use sick time to care for a sick family member. Without enough sick time, FMLA applies (unpaid time off).

Exempt employees may or may not be able to use sick time in the same way, depending on the employers rules. Some states have laws around that as well.

My shot at Big Pharma was not about the vaccine being available, but instead the push to have it mandatory.

[LSU]

My shot at Big Pharma was not about the vaccine being available, but instead the push to have it mandatory.

Yeah, I figured.

[LSU]

If mandatory vaccinations were required to be publically funded, do you think there would be the same number of "mandatory" vaccinations?

Or are they already publically funded?

[KinjaKahn]

If mandatory vaccinations were required to be publically funded, do you think there would be the same number of "mandatory" vaccinations?

Or are they already publically funded?

The cervical cancer vaccine isn't publicly funded. It's mandated commerce/profit for big pharma.

[LSU]

The cervical cancer vaccine isn't publicly funded. It's mandated commerce/profit for big pharma.



HPV vaccine is mandatory? I didn't realize that. Last I heard it was "recommended".

[domenick2x]

If mandatory vaccinations were required to be publically funded, do you think there would be the same number of "mandatory" vaccinations?

Or are they already publically funded?
They are not currently publicly funded.


Unless you are on Medicare.


But they are not really mandatory either. There are exceptions you can take.

[LSU]

They are not currently publicly funded.


Unless you are on Medicare.


But they are not really mandatory either. There are exceptions you can take.



Some schools require them. I remember when I moved from AR to WI for my senior year, I had to get a shot, I can't remember which, but I think it was MMR booster or something. That was also the last time I got a tetanus shot. 1994.

If they're not mandatory, how is big pharma making money by making them mandatory? Or is it only certain exceptions you mean and generally they're mandatory?

[domenick2x]

Some schools require them. I remember when I moved from AR to WI for my senior year, I had to get a shot, I can't remember which, but I think it was MMR booster or something. That was also the last time I got a tetanus shot. 1994.

If they're not mandatory, how is big pharma making money by making them mandatory? Or is it only certain exceptions you mean and generally they're mandatory?
Certain exceptions. I believe all states have a 'medical exemption', you'd have to get your doctor to sign off. Many also have a 'religious exemption', one where you only have to certify that it's your personal religious views.

Some states (I think Maryland recently) have enacted 'philosophical exemptions', so you don't have to lie about having specific religious views.

[LSU]

Certain exceptions. I believe all states have a 'medical exemption', you'd have to get your doctor to sign off. Many also have a 'religious exemption', one where you only have to certify that it's your personal religious views.

Some states (I think Maryland recently) have enacted 'philosophical exemptions', so you don't have to lie about having specific religious views.


Man. I certainly hope there's not an outbreak of something somewhere. With all the bad press vaccination is getting of late, I could see a lot of people going off of them. Hopefully our medicine and better hygiene would be enough to keep that from happening.

[Roy Munson]

is this like a kinja clue?
CLUE: probably not...

[domenick2x]

CLUE: probably not...
I didn't understand that until yesterday, when he threw out 2 or 3 in a row.


It's like there's a new game show, "What in the World is Kinja Thinking?"


Reminds me of a Forrest Gump quote.

[domenick2x]

Man. I certainly hope there's not an outbreak of something somewhere. With all the bad press vaccination is getting of late, I could see a lot of people going off of them. Hopefully our medicine and better hygiene would be enough to keep that from happening.
My cousin is a doctor, and refused to come to my house for a Xmas party because a) her daughter had been vaccinated for Chicken Pox, b) my daughters hadn't, and c) she was afraid of exposure.

Now, if my daughters had been exposed to CP, or had any symptoms, of course we'd call off the party. But the attitude that individual children without vaccines put other individual directly at risk makes NO sense.

Yes, if there's an outbreak, there's concern. Yes, my kid is more likely to get whatever it is than your kid (though I could show some arguments to the contrary).... where's your faith in almighty Science, people?

[fahvra]

I believe the Thimerosal-vaccine link has been mostly debunked at least. Diagnoses of Autistic Specturm Disorder have increased even with the cessation of the use of it as a preservative for vaccines.

I believe strongly in a genetic link, although there must be other triggering factors, too.


'mostly debunked at least'. what exactly does that mean, sort of maybe?

[fahvra]

You have NO idea.

Brutal.

nice.

I never had pox as a kid. come to think of it, Ive never had anything.

[fahvra]

Well, probably something like 5/12,000,000 kids die of chicken pox, so...

I didn't know there was a requirement for it. We got ours yesterday (I have previously thought it was unnecessary, but the doc seemed pretty confident in it). I'm sure we could've opted out of it had we really wanted to.

and all 5 of those kids had the shot.

its hard to argue with the doc because most(ive come across) arent free thinkers, they just go with what they learned in school. you can opt out of everything if you want.

[fahvra]

My cousin is a doctor, and refused to come to my house for a Xmas party because a) her daughter had been vaccinated for Chicken Pox, b) my daughters hadn't, and c) she was afraid of exposure.

Now, if my daughters had been exposed to CP, or had any symptoms, of course we'd call off the party. But the attitude that individual children without vaccines put other individual directly at risk makes NO sense.

Yes, if there's an outbreak, there's concern. Yes, my kid is more likely to get whatever it is than your kid (though I could show some arguments to the contrary).... where's your faith in almighty Science, people?

people are funny.

[fahvra]

If mandatory vaccinations were required to be publically funded, do you think there would be the same number of "mandatory" vaccinations?

Or are they already publically funded?

no, not even close.

our local taxes would go through the roof.

[fahvra]

Man. I certainly hope there's not an outbreak of something somewhere. With all the bad press vaccination is getting of late, I could see a lot of people going off of them. Hopefully our medicine and better hygiene would be enough to keep that from happening.

alot will and have already but not enough to outweigh the millions of people that are afraid to do anything different than what the doctor tells them and find out for themselves.

[LSU]

alot will and have already but not enough to outweigh the millions of people that are afraid to do anything different than what the doctor tells them and find out for themselves.

For what I'm talking about, the non-vaccinators need not outweigh the vaccinators.


You add the number of kids that aren't vaccinated to the number of kids that are vaccinated, but for whatever reason won't mount a protective immune response, and you have a larger number of kids susceptible.

There's not going to be a nationwide scourge, I don't believe, but it could be a local outbreak.

For as much bad press as vaccines get, as soon as a few unvaccinated kids either contract mumps, measles, rubella, or any of the other bigger ones and potentially suffer ill effects, that will cause some parents to freak and jump off the non-vaccine bandwagon.

It's likely cyclical.

[LSU]

My cousin is a doctor, and refused to come to my house for a Xmas party because a) her daughter had been vaccinated for Chicken Pox, b) my daughters hadn't, and c) she was afraid of exposure.

Now, if my daughters had been exposed to CP, or had any symptoms, of course we'd call off the party. But the attitude that individual children without vaccines put other individual directly at risk makes NO sense.

Yes, if there's an outbreak, there's concern. Yes, my kid is more likely to get whatever it is than your kid (though I could show some arguments to the contrary).... where's your faith in almighty Science, people?

Doctors and vets are similar. I work around a lot of vets. They're trained to diagnose and treat. Not much more than that. It's not always the case, but quite a few leave themselves out of figuring out the actual science behind diseases and focus only on what happens when you have the disease.