It’s dangerous for children to know that your philosophy exists!

[rip]

Here's something for hotpapa to rant about.

Rep. Monique Davis to atheist Rob Sherman: `It’s dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists!'

The following exchange between atheist activist Rob Sherman of Buffalo Grove and Ill. Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago) took place Wednesday afternoon in the General Assembly as Sherman testified before the House State Government Administration Committee.

I know from experience that many of you will side with Davis (update -- apparently I was wrong! ), but I ask you to consider what the outcry would have been if a lawmaker had launched a similar attack on the beliefs of a religious person.

Davis: I don’t know what you have against God, but some of us don’t have much against him. We look forward to him and his blessings. And it’s really a tragedy -- it’s tragic -- when a person who is engaged in anything related to God, they want to fight. They want to fight prayer in school.

I don’t see you (Sherman) fighting guns in school. You know?

I’m trying to understand the philosophy that you want to spread in the state of Illinois. This is the Land of Lincoln. This is the Land of Lincoln where people believe in God, where people believe in protecting their children.… What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous, it’s dangerous--

Sherman: What’s dangerous, ma’am?

Davis: It’s dangerous to the progression of this state. And it’s dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists! Now you will go to court to fight kids to have the opportunity to be quiet for a minute. But damn if you’ll go to [court] to fight for them to keep guns out of their hands. I am fed up! Get out of that seat!

Sherman: Thank you for sharing your perspective with me, and I’m sure that if this matter does go to court---

Davis: You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.

Sherman didn't budge, continued his testimony related to Gov. Rod Blagojevich's oddly misdirected $1 million grant intended for Pilgrim Baptist Church, (story) and later told me he "felt like Rosa Parks."

Here is the audio, courtesy of the Illinois Information Service.

UPDATE -- Daily Kos readers have hundred of comments on this story. Boing Boing is covering as well. So is the Huffington Post. The Council for Secular Humanism in Amherst, NY is calling upon Davis to resign.

About that "This is the Land of Lincoln!" cry. Was Lincoln a believer? Was he a Christian? Yes and no. I explain here.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/04/rep-monique-dav.html

[rip]

From Youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=T35_vQms4Ck

Olberman...yeah I know...lol

EDIT: sorry. Didn't realize that one had some dude giving his views after it.

[rip]

I don't normally give two shits about this kind of thing, but I still find it odd that atheism is considered fair game when it comes to "freedom of Religion" in this country. Atheists are openly berated with no cosequence it seems.

[Smoke681]

Atheists are usually the FIRST to cry foul when evangelicals spread the word of God. The whole "don't press your faith on me" stuff.

But it seems they want to be able to spread their agenda with more freedom than Christians.

They want their cake and they want to eat it too. Double standard. Christians should shut up, but atheists can by as loud and obnoxious as they want. Christians are wrong, atheists are right.

It's old and tired. Hypocricy.

Atheists are entitled to their beliefs (or lack of) as are Christians and Wiccans and everyone else. When you exercising your "belief" infringes on the rights and/or privacy and/or beliefs of others, your entitlement is void. In my opinion of course.

[IBC]

I don't normally give two shits about this kind of thing, but I still find it odd that atheism is considered fair game when it comes to "freedom of Religion" in this country. Atheists are openly berated with no cosequence it seems.

Yes they are. We have freedom of religion, we still need to work on freedom from religion.

[Smoke681]

Yes they are. We have freedom of religion, we still need to work on freedom from religion.
Which would include atheism as well, in a perfect world. ANd Jehova's Witnesses too. There is not a single more invasive religion that JW's, coming up on your property, knocking on your door, trying to sweet talk their BS into your house.

Mormons aren't much better.

Atheists are third on this list. Shut up. You believe in nothing, have no hope, and rely on science to tell you how life should be lived. I got it. Now get back to your laboratory.

[IBC]

Which would include atheism as well, in a perfect world. ANd Jehova's Witnesses too. There is not a single more invasive religion that JW's, coming up on your property, knocking on your door, trying to sweet talk their BS into your house.

Mormons aren't much better.

Atheists are third on this list. Shut up. You believe in nothing, have no hope, and rely on science to tell you how life should be lived. I got it. Now get back to your laboratory.

Jebus.

[Smoke681]

Jebus.
He's not atheist.

[rip]

I don't see any religious practicioners showing up in public office bans:

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Laws_and_other_rules_against_atheists_and_agnostic s

or retarded shit like this:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/

[Hotpapa666]

Atheists are usually the FIRST to cry foul when evangelicals spread the word of God. The whole "don't press your faith on me" stuff.

But it seems they want to be able to spread their agenda with more freedom than Christians.

They want their cake and they want to eat it too. Double standard. Christians should shut up, but atheists can by as loud and obnoxious as they want. Christians are wrong, atheists are right.

It's old and tired. Hypocricy.

Atheists are entitled to their beliefs (or lack of) as are Christians and Wiccans and everyone else. When you exercising your "belief" infringes on the rights and/or privacy and/or beliefs of others, your entitlement is void. In my opinion of course.

You demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of Atheism. Your diest teachers have convinced you that Athiests don't have hope. They and you are wrong.

[Hotpapa666]

There is so much to work with in the actual article, I don't know if I can cover it all. So I'll just give a once over. Every person in America should be outraged here. This is a member of state governement attempting to revoke a person's federally protected rights based on his beliefs. This woman wants to slience this man before he can even state his case. That's about as unAmerican as you can get folks.

I hope that is ranty enough for ya Rip.

[domenick2x]

There is so much to work with in the actual article, I don't know if I can cover it all. So I'll just give a once over. Every person in America should be outraged here. This is a member of state governement attempting to revoke a person's federally protected rights based on his beliefs. This woman wants to slience this man before he can even state his case. That's about as unAmerican as you can get folks.

I hope that is ranty enough for ya Rip.
I agree. Terrible stuff.

[Smoke681]

You demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of Atheism. Your diest teachers have convinced you that Athiests don't have hope. They and you are wrong.
Atheists have hope? In what? Worms? What is your eternal hope? What can it possibly be?

I need to know.

[LSU]

Atheists have hope? In what? Worms? What is your eternal hope? What can it possibly be?

I need to know.


Living life, maybe? Enjoying their time on Earth alive with friends and family?

It's not as if atheists sit in dark rooms with curtains drawn just waiting to die and be done with it.

[Smoke681]

Living life, maybe? Enjoying their time on Earth alive with friends and family?

It's not as if atheists sit in dark rooms with curtains drawn just waiting to die and be done with it.
I said eternal hope. You can't read.

[LSU]

I said eternal hope. You can't read.




Give me a break YOM. You call for honest intellectual debate, or at least friendly debate, yet pull out the "you can't read" card?

[LSU]

I said eternal hope. You can't read.


So, if they have no eternal hope, there's something wrong?

What is your eternal hope? Is it shared by every non-atheist?

If there is no "eternal hope" as you see it, what would that say about an atheist?

[Smoke681]

Give me a break YOM. You call for honest intellectual debate, or at least friendly debate, yet pull out the "you can't read" card?
Well, did you misread it or not?

[Smoke681]

So, if they have no eternal hope, there's something wrong?

What is your eternal hope? Is it shared by every non-atheist?

If there is no "eternal hope" as you see it, what would that say about an atheist?
I guess I just can't imagine living my life believing that when I die it's wormfood and nothing more.

To be honest, I don't even know what an atheist believes happens to the human soul after death. I could probably start there. But, in the absence of any faith in God, I don't think it's an unfair assumption that they don't believe anything positive happens after death.

[pnkpanther]

Atheists have hope? In what? Worms? What is your eternal hope? What can it possibly be?

I need to know.


so thats what christianity is about to you? the promise of heaven and thats it?

I consider myself agnostic, i do believe that when you die, you die. sounds bleak to some I guess, but to me it means, enjoy your life.

[LSU]

Well, did you misread it or not?



Atheists have hope? In what? Worms? What is your eternal hope? What can it possibly be?

I need to know.


First question asked: "Atheists have hope? In what? Worms?"

Then you went on to ask about eternal hope, which I'm not sure Papa commented on, but it's what you injected into the conversation.

So, did I misread by answering the question of "...have hope? In what?"

[LSU]

I guess I just can't imagine living my life believing that when I die it's wormfood and nothing more.

To be honest, I don't even know what an atheist believes happens to the human soul after death. I could probably start there. But, in the absence of any faith in God, I don't think it's an unfair assumption that they don't believe anything positive happens after death.


Well, first you've got the misconception that an atheist would believe there's a soul.

But other than that, yeah. That's it. You live, you die would be my guess. If that's what an atheist believes, what's wrong with it? Live life to the fullest, then.

[pnkpanther]

i love your perceived views of white blue collar christians being persecuted, like you have the roughest of it all...

[thrasymachus]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This applies to state legislatures and reflects freedom of religion for all people everywhere within the United States and that the government will not be involved, at all, with supporting, endorsing, establishing, or banning any religion.

[Smoke681]

Well, first you've got the misconception that an atheist would believe there's a soul.

But other than that, yeah. That's it. You live, you die would be my guess. If that's what an atheist believes, what's wrong with it? Live life to the fullest, then.
If it works for them, so be it. I'm simply saying that for me, that's no way to live. Hopeless. I couldn't do that.

And Pnk, I have no idea what in the hell you're talking about, but ok.

[LSU]

If it works for them, so be it. I'm simply saying that for me, that's no way to live. Hopeless. I couldn't do that.

And Pnk, I have no idea what in the hell you're talking about, but ok.



I don't think anyone is trying to make you live that way.

but again, it's not "hopeless". I would venture that most atheists thoroughly enjoy their lives and their views. At least no less or no more than theists or agnostics.

[Smoke681]

I don't think anyone is trying to make you live that way.

but again, it's not "hopeless". I would venture that most atheists thoroughly enjoy their lives and their views. At least no less or no more than theists or agnostics.
I think you're trying to spin this into me saying that atheists have some kind of inferior life. Absolutely not.

I'm saying, have said, and will say again, FOR ME, I can't imagine living that way. It works for them or they wouldn't be atheist. Great, I hope they're happy and wish them the best.

[LSU]

I think you're trying to spin this into me saying that atheists have some kind of inferior life. Absolutely not.

I'm saying, have said, and will say again, FOR ME, I can't imagine living that way. It works for them or they wouldn't be atheist. Great, I hope they're happy and wish them the best.



Well, "hopeless" does have a negative connotation.

[Smoke681]

Well, "hopeless" does have a negative connotation.
Well. I guess it depends on one's definition of hope and hopelessness, and how honest one is willing to be with oneself.

If you believe that when you die you become wormfood, that's hopeless, to me.

Maybe I'm the nut here, I'm cool with that. Maybe my vision of hope is skewed.

[LSU]

Well. I guess it depends on one's definition of hope and hopelessness, and how honest one is willing to be with oneself.

If you believe that when you die you become wormfood, that's hopeless, to me.

Maybe I'm the nut here, I'm cool with that. Maybe my vision of hope is skewed.



Why does anyone have to be a nut because of a difference of opinion? Maybe you're not a nut and Papa isn't either.

[rip]

Most atheists aren't the outspoken a-holes people like to focus on either. Same as most "religious" people aren't the fanatics peole like to focus on. Atheists are just as accepting of others' beliefs as Christians, or any other religious person is. Doesn't make either one a nutjob necessarily if they don't believe the same things.

People have different mindsets, and ways their brains work. Analytical people have to have evidence to believe something is true. It has to make logical sense to them for it to be true. They aren't prone to believing things that they cannot see, or prove. The concept of "faith" in a religious sense is completely against the way they think.

[rip]

Looks like an "apology" is forthcoming on this now. I searched her in Google News, but there was only one article saying that she apologized for a local CBS website. When i went to the link it was dead...lol

[rip]

Lawmaker Apologizes For Comments Against Atheist

CHICAGO (WBBM) -- State Representative Monique Davis is apologizing a week after she blasted an atheist activist during a hearing over a million dollar grant for a South Side church.

Because of Davis' rant, she was named Tuesday night as the "worst person in the world" --a dubious award doled out daily by news commentator Keith Olbermann on MSNBC's "Countdown" program.

Rep. Davis told atheist Rob Sherman that, "What you have to spew and spread is dangerous" and that "This is the land of Lincoln where people believe in God."

But, after being on the receiving end of a week’s worth of public criticism, Davis called Sherman yesterday to apologize.

Sherman says Davis told him she "took out her frustrations and emotions on me and that she shouldn’t have done that." Sherman says Davis' explanation was "reasonable" and that he forgives her.

According to Sherman and State Rep. Jack Franks….Davis claims her outburst was triggered by learning shortly beforehand…that there’d been another Chicago Public School student killed.

State Rep. Jack Franks was chairing the hearing that day and says Davis’ outburst was uncharacteristic, adding "she was having a bad day."

http://www.wbbm780.com/Lawmaker-Apologizes-For-Comments-Against-Atheist/1980701

That's a good excuse there. More people should use that one.

[BoredWithNoSB]

I'm saying, have said, and will say again, FOR ME, I can't imagine living that way. It works for them or they wouldn't be atheist.

Not necessarily true. My athiest leanings have led me to have panic attacks several times, when I sit alone at home and really get thinking about how I am living in a little 80 year span of one billion years and how there are Billions of folks who have died that nobody could name or remember today. Someday I will be one of those people who nobody knows existed and will have no evidence of.
It's not a great way to live if you get really deep a philisophical into things. I'd love to have the view that there's a God and I'll live forever. I've tried convincing myself of this and continue to try. It's like looking at a balll that looks white to me, though, and trying to convince myself its really purple. I hope someday I'm able to convince myself of it, but haven't had much luck so far. I just look at see a white ball that lots of others say is purple.

So, to say, they choose to live that way becuase it works for them is misleading in some cases. I'd much rather see the purple ball.

[Jiddy78]

Which would include atheism as well, in a perfect world. ANd Jehova's Witnesses too. There is not a single more invasive religion that JW's, coming up on your property, knocking on your door, trying to sweet talk their BS into your house.

Mormons aren't much better.

Atheists are third on this list. Shut up. You believe in nothing, have no hope, and rely on science to tell you how life should be lived. I got it. Now get back to your laboratory.

Cultivation is a powerful driver. Relationships...Love...Children...Helping others...Seeing and doing things to enrich and pass on. And, surprise surprise, this is something available to ALL people, believers and non. Hope for one's self in the future is good....Hope for ONLY one's self in the future is...selfish. Everything you wish for others-your family, your friends-they do as well...unless they're selfish Babylonians...which is possible...but not unique to those of any particular belief. Babylonianism is open to everyone.

[rip]

Not necessarily true. My athiest leanings have led me to have panic attacks several times, when I sit alone at home and really get thinking about how I am living in a little 80 year span of one billion years and how there are Billions of folks who have died that nobody could name or remember today. Someday I will be one of those people who nobody knows existed and will have no evidence of.
It's not a great way to live if you get really deep a philisophical into things. I'd love to have the view that there's a God and I'll live forever. I've tried convincing myself of this and continue to try. It's like looking at a balll that looks white to me, though, and trying to convince myself its really purple. I hope someday I'm able to convince myself of it, but haven't had much luck so far. I just look at see a white ball that lots of others say is purple.

So, to say, they choose to live that way becuase it works for them is misleading in some cases. I'd much rather see the purple ball.

Definitely can agree with this to some degree. Many atheists spend a lot of time dwelling on these questions. The more they dig into all the religious stuff the less they believe in it. Many CAN feel hopeless, but not all of them.

There is certainly something to be said for convincing yourself that you will have eternal life. People have been looking for meaning since we first found ourselves here. Dwelling on it is certainly not good for your psychological health. That's why I tend to shy away from those people that spend a good deal of their time arguing about the Bible being false, or ridiculous. Nothing good can come of it.

Good philosophy about happiness is good philosophy whether you believe in God, or not. Be cool to each other as best you can, and try not to dwell too much on anything but trying to live a good life. We know what is good and what is bad. It feels a lot better to be good regardless of what your spiritual beliefs are.

[domenick2x]

Well. I guess it depends on one's definition of hope and hopelessness, and how honest one is willing to be with oneself.

If you believe that when you die you become wormfood, that's hopeless, to me.

Maybe I'm the nut here, I'm cool with that. Maybe my vision of hope is skewed.
What's so bad about wormfood?

There's other things to consider, YOM. Making a difference for someone else... something that impacts them down the road. Even if you never know who they are.

I'm thinking working to better the environment, or help a poor community help themselves... the kinds of things Christians do because it's what God wants.

If you don't believe in God, is that a reason not to do those things?

[rip]

If you don't believe in God, is that a reason not to do those things?

Why stop there? If there isn't a man made law for it, then it is all fair game. Cheating, lying, etc. It's only morally wrong if you believe in God isn't it?

[domenick2x]

Why stop there? If there isn't a man made law for it, then it is all fair game. Cheating, lying, etc. It's only morally wrong if you believe in God isn't it?
I don't believe that God imparts morals.

Society does. So unless you want to build an island of 1 somewhere, no.

[thrasymachus]

I don't believe that God imparts morals.

Society does. So unless you want to build an island of 1 somewhere, no.
God could be a social creation.

[domenick2x]

God could be a social creation.
One could imply that. It certainly has been true in some circumstances.

Of course, he might not be. And he's not the only one.

[Jiddy78]

Why stop there? If there isn't a man made law for it, then it is all fair game. Cheating, lying, etc. It's only morally wrong if you believe in God isn't it?


How do I reeeacch these keeeds?

[rip]

How do I reeeacch these keeeds?

LOL!

I had to look up where they got that idea from. Stand and Deliver. I knew I saw it before, but couldn't remember what it was from. That was probably the "Teacher in the ghetto" movie that gave us an entire genre of these shitty movies. Every time one comes out all I can think about is Coolio.

[Roy Munson]

Which would include atheism as well, in a perfect world. ANd Jehova's Witnesses too. There is not a single more invasive religion that JW's, coming up on your property, knocking on your door, trying to sweet talk their BS into your house.

Mormons aren't much better.

Atheists are third on this list. Shut up. You believe in nothing, have no hope, and rely on science to tell you how life should be lived. I got it. Now get back to your laboratory.
If you want JW's to go away, answer the door naked...

[Roy Munson]

I guess I just can't imagine living my life believing that when I die it's wormfood and nothing more.

To be honest, I don't even know what an atheist believes happens to the human soul after death. I could probably start there. But, in the absence of any faith in God, I don't think it's an unfair assumption that they don't believe anything positive happens after death.
reincarnation.

I used to be somebody famous...

[rip]

Reincarnation is real. Maybe not with a soul, but atomically it is. Unless the universe collapses upon itself we will never die. I have been a shoe before.

[Hotpapa666]

Well, I had a busy day, school started, I went to a party, an actual party (a real rarity around here) and this thread lit up. I have to thank LSU for essentially arguing my case for me about atheism and hope. And, I would like to prove that we atheists have hope by saying that a few posts in this thread, namely by Bored and Rip, have brought me great hope. My attitude is that more questions that you ask and the more exploration that you do, the more information that you have and the closer you get to answering those questions; these guys seemed to mirror my thoughts. Diests ask few questions and they always have their answers in a god or a pantheon of gods or a book or... It is very comforting to have those ideas to fall back on but when they are exposed as false it leaves a person in a void of truth. As some folks mention this is an extremely isolating experience, I call it the Existential Experience. My Existential Experience lead me to spending allot of time alone in nature because everything made sense there, the fallen tree became the source of next years morels, the fallen bird became lunch for flies and the old rotting shoe became Rip...

[Roy Munson]

Reincarnation is real. Maybe not with a soul, but atomically it is. Unless the universe collapses upon itself we will never die. I have been a shoe before.
If I'm going to be a piece of sporting equipment, I'll be a woman's bicycle seat.

[Jiddy78]

LOL!

I had to look up where they got that idea from. Stand and Deliver. I knew I saw it before, but couldn't remember what it was from. That was probably the "Teacher in the ghetto" movie that gave us an entire genre of these shitty movies. Every time one comes out all I can think about is Coolio.

I love that he has the combover and a hand in his pants...

[KinjaKahn]

Yes they are. We have freedom of religion, we still need to work on freedom from religion.
So jump in a boat and go conquer a new land and make it the way you want.

[domenick2x]

So jump in a boat and go conquer a new land and make it the way you want.
Says the guy that wants everyone to carry a gun, and is happy when he hears about abortion clinics being bombed.

Cuba ought to be available in about 5 years...

[KinjaKahn]

Says the guy that wants everyone to carry a gun, and is happy when he hears about abortion clinics being bombed.

Cuba ought to be available in about 5 years...
I don't believe you have an accurate mental image of me, or my philosophy.

[domenick2x]

I don't believe you have an accurate mental image of me, or my philosophy.
Very likely.

I'm only parroting the comments that you post.

[KinjaKahn]

Very likely.

I'm only parroting the comments that you post.

Parroting is inaccurate, paraphrasing comments is more likely. Though i do not believe I said it would be ok for, "everyone to carry a gun" I was also not serious when I said I enjoyed the deaths of abortion doctors... Perhaps you should frolic in the bush more often. :)