US Army 'war hero' outed as fraud

[Vegas]

Another John Kerry:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080402200614.ttf9oel4&show_article=1&catnum=9

A New Yorker who for 40 years passed himself off as Vietnam war hero who had been decorated for extreme gallantry was sentenced to community service Wednesday after being outed as a fraud.

According to prosecutors, Louis Lowell McGuinn claimed to have been a lieutenant colonel in the US special forces and had used his fake military history since 1968 to get work or to win kudos at social functions.

His military records showed that McGuinn had indeed been in the US Army and served in Vietnam, but was discharged as a private without being decorated.

In 2006, McGuinn, who is now in his 60s, attended a ball in New York's glitzy Pierre Hotel wearing the Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, awarded for being wounded in action.

The Distinguished Service Cross, the second-highest military decoration of the US Army, is awarded for acts of extraordinary heroism.

A real lieutenant colonel and West Point graduate, Mark Kimey, instantly spotted there was something not quite right about McGuinn and reported him.

"They're always (Navy) SEALs or special forces," Kimey told the New York Daily News last year. "Nobody ever masquerades as a cook."

McGuinn pleaded guilty last December under a recently passed law known as the Stolen Valor Act, and was on Wednesday sentenced in a New York court to one year of probation and 100 hours of community service.

Prosecutors accused McGuinn of insulting soldiers who had been decorated for genuine acts of selfless heroism, some of whom were awarded the Distinguished Service Cross posthumously.

"Fraudulently wearing these medals is an affront to their memory, and an affront to the heroism of the surviving service men and women who were legitimately awarded them," prosecutors said.

[thrasymachus]

Another John Kerry:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080402200614.ttf9oel4&show_article=1&catnum=9

A New Yorker who for 40 years passed himself off as Vietnam war hero who had been decorated for extreme gallantry was sentenced to community service Wednesday after being outed as a fraud.

According to prosecutors, Louis Lowell McGuinn claimed to have been a lieutenant colonel in the US special forces and had used his fake military history since 1968 to get work or to win kudos at social functions.

His military records showed that McGuinn had indeed been in the US Army and served in Vietnam, but was discharged as a private without being decorated.

In 2006, McGuinn, who is now in his 60s, attended a ball in New York's glitzy Pierre Hotel wearing the Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, awarded for being wounded in action.

The Distinguished Service Cross, the second-highest military decoration of the US Army, is awarded for acts of extraordinary heroism.

A real lieutenant colonel and West Point graduate, Mark Kimey, instantly spotted there was something not quite right about McGuinn and reported him.

"They're always (Navy) SEALs or special forces," Kimey told the New York Daily News last year. "Nobody ever masquerades as a cook."

McGuinn pleaded guilty last December under a recently passed law known as the Stolen Valor Act, and was on Wednesday sentenced in a New York court to one year of probation and 100 hours of community service.

Prosecutors accused McGuinn of insulting soldiers who had been decorated for genuine acts of selfless heroism, some of whom were awarded the Distinguished Service Cross posthumously.

"Fraudulently wearing these medals is an affront to their memory, and an affront to the heroism of the surviving service men and women who were legitimately awarded them," prosecutors said.
What does this guy have in common with John Kerry?

[Vegas]

What does this guy have in common with John Kerry?

Both have been proven to be fraudulent heroes from Vietnam.

[thrasymachus]

Both have been proven to be fraudulent heroes from Vietnam.
I had no idea your standard of proof was so low. Why is it you don't believe in Evolution again?

Oh yeah. You believe what you want to believe. I forgot.

[Vegas]

I had no idea your standard of proof was so low. Why is it you don't believe in Evolution again?

Oh yeah. You believe what you want to believe. I forgot.

I don't believe in evolution because I am convinced of the large scientific hurdles to it. And I'm technically educated enough to make a very well informed decision.

Just like I'm informed enough to know that John Kerry didn't spend Christmas in Cambodia. If you want to believe that John Kerry did spend Christmas in Cambodia, that would be an example of someone believing what they want to believe.

[thrasymachus]

I don't believe in evolution because I am convinced of the large scientific hurdles to it. And I'm technically educated enough to make a very well informed decision.

Just like I'm informed enough to know that John Kerry didn't spend Christmas in Cambodia. If you want to believe that John Kerry did spend Christmas in Cambodia, that would be an example of someone believing what they want to believe.
Believe what you want. John Kerry isn't comparable to this guy, McGuinn, and your reference to him being "another John Kerry" is a huge stretch. Bigger than the 7th inning kind.

[Vegas]

Believe what you want. John Kerry isn't comparable to this guy, McGuinn, and your reference to him being "another John Kerry" is a huge stretch. Bigger than the 7th inning kind.

And you believe what you want as well. But remember if you think John Kerry spent Christmas in Cambodia like he had seared into his memory, that's an even bigger stretch.

[thrasymachus]

And you believe what you want as well. But remember if you think John Kerry spent Christmas in Cambodia like he had seared into his memory, that's an even bigger stretch.
I did not vote for John Kerry. I have my reasons for not doing so.

Remembering something incorrectly and going to Veterans' Balls claiming to be some kind of war hero are a bit different, though.

[Smoke681]

I did not vote for John Kerry. I have my reasons for not doing so.

Remembering something incorrectly and going to Veterans' Balls claiming to be some kind of war hero are a bit different, though.
"Remembering incorrectly"

Sorry, BS flag. As a veteran myself, I know where I was, and when I was there, because it was a significant time period in my life. You don't just "misremember" something that would be so significant. Just like Hilary "misremembering" phantom bullets flying in her direction in Bosnia. Horseshit, Hilary. You lied, you didn't misspeak and you didn't misremember, you told a bold faced lie. Kerry did as well.

Misremember. Ok.

[Vegas]

"Remembering incorrectly"

Sorry, BS flag. As a veteran myself, I know where I was, and when I was there, because it was a significant time period in my life. You don't just "misremember" something that would be so significant. Just like Hilary "misremembering" phantom bullets flying in her direction in Bosnia. Horseshit, Hilary. You lied, you didn't misspeak and you didn't misremember, you told a bold faced lie. Kerry did as well.

Misremember. Ok.

How would one misremember something that they told congress had been seared into their memory?

[thrasymachus]

"Remembering incorrectly"

Sorry, BS flag. As a veteran myself, I know where I was, and when I was there, because it was a significant time period in my life. You don't just "misremember" something that would be so significant. Just like Hilary "misremembering" phantom bullets flying in her direction in Bosnia. Horseshit, Hilary. You lied, you didn't misspeak and you didn't misremember, you told a bold faced lie. Kerry did as well.

Misremember. Ok.
Alright. I downplayed what Kerry may have done. Do you agree there's still no comparison between Kerry and this McGuinn character?

[Smoke681]

Alright. I downplayed what Kerry may have done. Do you agree there's still no comparison between Kerry and this McGuinn character?
The comparison may have been a reach, but not a completely invalid one. THe similarity is in the fact that both of these turds misrepresented their "heroism" in combat, misrepresented their military service in general. You said Kerry didn't go parading around at veteran's balls and such...no, he didn't, he paraded around the entire Nation during his campaign "misremembering" all kinds of falsehoods about his service and patriotism.

[domenick2x]

The comparison may have been a reach, but not a completely invalid one. THe similarity is in the fact that both of these turds misrepresented their "heroism" in combat, misrepresented their military service in general. You said Kerry didn't go parading around at veteran's balls and such...no, he didn't, he paraded around the entire Nation during his campaign "misremembering" all kinds of falsehoods about his service and patriotism.
And yet, the Navy has said that the medals he has earned went through the appropriate process.

Completely different situation here.

And now, Vegas will bring up Christmas in Cambodia yet one more time, and I'll be force to point out that Kerry wasn't decorated for that action. It's a story, and clearly one he used for political purposes.

[Smoke681]

And yet, the Navy has said that the medals he has earned went through the appropriate process.

Completely different situation here.

And now, Vegas will bring up Christmas in Cambodia yet one more time, and I'll be force to point out that Kerry wasn't decorated for that action. It's a story, and clearly one he used for political purposes.
I never said he was or was not decorated. He completely misrepresented his service and that's an insult to veterans everywhere who ARE in harm's way on Christmas day or any other holiday.

The Navy, sorry, isn't always right on this shit. Not long ago, maybe a couple years ago, the Navy held a huge ceremony at the Medical Center in Norfolk for a sailor who was to be awarded a Bronze Star with a Combat "V" for Valor and a Purple Heart. A couple other awards, too, I think. All awarded by the highest ranking Naval Officer in the Norfolk area, proudly touted by the Navy as a hero.

Come to find out, that guy was a complete fraud. He wrote those awards up himself, somehow pushed them through the system and got them signed off on with apparently no checks for accuracy, and was subsequently given one hell of an honoring ceremony. All for nothing. Oh, and the Navy also promoted him to a rank he never rated to begin with, again based on documents the young sailor forged and pushed through.

The Navy can be had, they've been had many times before.

[Vegas]

And yet, the Navy has said that the medals he has earned went through the appropriate process.

Completely different situation here.

And now, Vegas will bring up Christmas in Cambodia yet one more time, and I'll be force to point out that Kerry wasn't decorated for that action. It's a story, and clearly one he used for political purposes.

Does the Christmas in Cambodia story that was seared into Kerry's memory not bring into question his credibility?

[hannitykillspuppies]

I never said he was or was not decorated. He completely misrepresented his service and that's an insult to veterans everywhere who ARE in harm's way on Christmas day or any other holiday.

The Navy, sorry, isn't always right on this shit. Not long ago, maybe a couple years ago, the Navy held a huge ceremony at the Medical Center in Norfolk for a sailor who was to be awarded a Bronze Star with a Combat "V" for Valor and a Purple Heart. A couple other awards, too, I think. All awarded by the highest ranking Naval Officer in the Norfolk area, proudly touted by the Navy as a hero.

Come to find out, that guy was a complete fraud. He wrote those awards up himself, somehow pushed them through the system and got them signed off on with apparently no checks for accuracy, and was subsequently given one hell of an honoring ceremony. All for nothing. Oh, and the Navy also promoted him to a rank he never rated to begin with, again based on documents the young sailor forged and pushed through.

The Navy can be had, they've been had many times before.aren't you in the navy?

[Smoke681]

aren't you in the navy?
No. What in the hell ever made you think that?

And even if I were, how would that change anything being discussed? The navy can be had, duped, etc: me being in the Navy wouldn't exactly change that.

Or would it...

[Jiddy78]

There is a distinct difference...The Army gave John Kerry his medals...This guy didn't receive squat from the army and pretended he did.

If that isn't obvious, I can't help those who turn a blind eye.

[domenick2x]

I never said he was or was not decorated. He completely misrepresented his service and that's an insult to veterans everywhere who ARE in harm's way on Christmas day or any other holiday.

The Navy, sorry, isn't always right on this shit. Not long ago, maybe a couple years ago, the Navy held a huge ceremony at the Medical Center in Norfolk for a sailor who was to be awarded a Bronze Star with a Combat "V" for Valor and a Purple Heart. A couple other awards, too, I think. All awarded by the highest ranking Naval Officer in the Norfolk area, proudly touted by the Navy as a hero.

Come to find out, that guy was a complete fraud. He wrote those awards up himself, somehow pushed them through the system and got them signed off on with apparently no checks for accuracy, and was subsequently given one hell of an honoring ceremony. All for nothing. Oh, and the Navy also promoted him to a rank he never rated to begin with, again based on documents the young sailor forged and pushed through.

The Navy can be had, they've been had many times before.
How did they find him?

And isn't it reasonable to assume that a vetting process like running for President would bring up a lot of similar problems with Kerry?

[domenick2x]

Does the Christmas in Cambodia story that was seared into Kerry's memory not bring into question his credibility?
Certainly it does.

and I'll be forced to point out that Kerry wasn't decorated for that action. It's a story, and clearly one he used for political purposes.

[Smoke681]

There is a distinct difference...The Army gave John Kerry his medals...This guy didn't receive squat from the army and pretended he did.

If that isn't obvious, I can't help those who turn a blind eye.
Absolutely, there is a distinct difference. And I'd like to go on record to say that I'm not disputing Kerry's medals. You're right, the Army awarded him those, and I have no evidence or reason to dispute medals.

However, despite the distinct difference, there ARE similarities thus making a comparison not unreasonable. They misrepresented their service. One in one way, the other in another. Misrepresentation is misrepresentation...a lie is a lie.

[domenick2x]

Absolutely, there is a distinct difference. And I'd like to go on record to say that I'm not disputing Kerry's medals. You're right, the Army awarded him those, and I have no evidence or reason to dispute medals.

However, despite the distinct difference, there ARE similarities thus making a comparison not unreasonable. They misrepresented their service. One in one way, the other in another. Misrepresentation is misrepresentation...a lie is a lie.
McGuinn lied about service.
Kerry lied about service - not that he did so, but about some specifics.

McGuinn then fabricated medals.
And gave himself a higher rank.
And said he was in Special Forces.
And "had used his fake military history since 1968 to get work or to win kudos at social functions."

Yet Kerry = McGuinn.

Hey, for that matter, Bush = McGuinn, right?

[Smoke681]

McGuinn lied about service.
Kerry lied about service - not that he did so, but about some specifics.

McGuinn then fabricated medals.
And gave himself a higher rank.
And said he was in Special Forces.
And "had used his fake military history since 1968 to get work or to win kudos at social functions."

Yet Kerry = McGuinn.

Hey, for that matter, Bush = McGuinn, right?
Hey, I didn't say Kerry = McGuinn. I said a comparison can be drawn. And it can.

And I don't recall Bush saying one thing about his service, and something completely different being discovered. You can correct me if I'm wrong, I may well be.

[Emmanuel]

No. What in the hell ever made you think that?

And even if I were, how would that change anything being discussed? The navy can be had, duped, etc: me being in the Navy wouldn't exactly change that.

Or would it...
He probably thought that because you mentioned being a marine.

Just taking a wild guess of course.

[domenick2x]

Hey, I didn't say Kerry = McGuinn. I said a comparison can be drawn. And it can.

And I don't recall Bush saying one thing about his service, and something completely different being discovered. You can correct me if I'm wrong, I may well be.
How about his National Guard service while also working on a campaign?

[IBC]

Disgusting to compare this guy to Kerry.

BTW, John Kerry was in Cambodia. It wasn't Christmas, it was around Christmas. Historians have pointed that out. O'Neill said it himself back in the day. He was in Cambodia too, before he changed his tune. We went into Cambodia. John Kerry went too.

Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed. In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards.

Conducting any additional review regarding events that took place over 30 years ago would not be productive. The passage of time would make reconstruction of the facts and circumstances unreliable, and would not allow the information gathered to be considered in the context of the time in which the events took place.

Our review also considered the fact that Senator Kerry's post-active duty activities were public and that military and civilian officials were aware of his actions at the time. For these reasons, I have determined that Senator Kerry's awards were properly approved and will take no further action in this matter.

I know Vegas, you would post proof, but I would just criticize your sources. Maybe because your sources don't include anyone who actually served with Kerry.

From Snopes, but well sourced:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

As far as Christmas in Cambodia, I have no doubt you can prove he wasn't there on Christmas. I have no doubt there is no proof that states he was not ever in Cambodia.

The continued attacks on Senator Kerry's service belong in the conspiracy theory section.

[Vegas]

Disgusting to compare this guy to Kerry.

BTW, John Kerry was in Cambodia. It wasn't Christmas, it was around Christmas. Historians have pointed that out. O'Neill said it himself back in the day. He was in Cambodia too, before he changed his tune. We went into Cambodia. John Kerry went too.



I know Vegas, you would post proof, but I would just criticize your sources. Maybe because your sources don't include anyone who actually served with Kerry.

From Snopes, but well sourced:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

As far as Christmas in Cambodia, I have no doubt you can prove he wasn't there on Christmas. I have no doubt there is no proof that states he was not ever in Cambodia.

The continued attacks on Senator Kerry's service belong in the conspiracy theory section.

Kerry told Congress that sitting in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968 and listening to Richard Nixon give a speech about not having troops in Cambodia. It was seared in his memory, he said. Nobody has backed up Kerry's claims. And Nixon wasn't even the president on Christmas in 1968. If he can lie to congress about something seared into his memory that couldn't have happened, he could lie to get purple hearts he didn't deserve.

[IBC]

Kerry told Congress that sitting in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968 and listening to Richard Nixon give a speech about not having troops in Cambodia. It was seared in his memory, he said. Nobody has backed up Kerry's claims. And Nixon wasn't even the president on Christmas in 1968. If he can lie to congress about something seared into his memory that couldn't have happened, he could lie to get purple hearts he didn't deserve.

I do not know what to tell you. His memory was certainly off. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. LBJ was giving speeches about Cambodia during that time. It just didn't happen exactly the way he remembered it. He went to Cambodia. He was shot at by the Khmer Rouge and the Vietcong. The Khmer Rouge were our allies. That is what he was testifying about. But yeah, he didn't deserve the medals. Give me one, just one decent source that says he didn't. I gave you plenty including the Department of Defense.

[Jiddy78]

Kerry told Congress that sitting in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968 and listening to Richard Nixon give a speech about not having troops in Cambodia. It was seared in his memory, he said. Nobody has backed up Kerry's claims. And Nixon wasn't even the president on Christmas in 1968. If he can lie to congress about something seared into his memory that couldn't have happened, he could lie to get purple hearts he didn't deserve.

I think yer fishing with a comparison regardless of these semantics....YOM doesn't...so at least yer not alone.

[IBC]

I think yer fishing with a comparison regardless of these semantics....YOM doesn't...so at least yer not alone.

There is no proof of any of this, and they cannot supply any. They will try and create doubt, that was what this thing was all about in 2004, and what it is all about now. Belongs in Conspiracy section.

Does Bush misremembering things about 911 say anything about his involvement? Absolutely fucking not. Guy says he remembers seeing teh first plane hit the building live on TV. However, he did not have anything to do with 911. Seriously guys, get it together. You can disagree with his post-war activities, but to tarnish a war hero for your own parties gain is just disgusting.

[Jiddy78]

There is no proof of any of this, and they cannot supply any. They will try and create doubt, that was what this thing was all about in 2004, and what it is all about now. Belongs in Conspiracy section.

Does Bush misremembering things about 911 say anything about his involvement? Absolutely fucking not. Guy says he remembers seeing teh first plane hit the building live on TV. However, he did not have anything to do with 911. Seriously guys, get it together. You can disagree with his post-war activities, but to tarnish a war hero for your own parties gain is just disgusting.

He did?

[Vegas]

There is no proof of any of this, and they cannot supply any. They will try and create doubt, that was what this thing was all about in 2004, and what it is all about now. Belongs in Conspiracy section.

Does Bush misremembering things about 911 say anything about his involvement? Absolutely fucking not. Guy says he remembers seeing teh first plane hit the building live on TV. However, he did not have anything to do with 911. Seriously guys, get it together. You can disagree with his post-war activities, but to tarnish a war hero for your own parties gain is just disgusting.

If Kerry had nothing to hide, he would have released his war records in 2004.

[Jiddy78]

If Kerry had nothing to hide, he would have released his war records in 2004.


Sustained.

Speculative.

[Smoke681]

There is no proof of any of this, and they cannot supply any. They will try and create doubt, that was what this thing was all about in 2004, and what it is all about now. Belongs in Conspiracy section.

Does Bush misremembering things about 911 say anything about his involvement? Absolutely fucking not. Guy says he remembers seeing teh first plane hit the building live on TV. However, he did not have anything to do with 911. Seriously guys, get it together. You can disagree with his post-war activities, but to tarnish a war hero for your own parties gain is just disgusting.
When the hell did Bush say this? He was reading books, and I don't remember him ever saying anything different about what he was doing on 9/11.

[hannitykillspuppies]

When the hell did Bush say this? He was reading books, and I don't remember him ever saying anything different about what he was doing on 9/11.
come on, he can't read books.

[Smoke681]

come on, he can't read books.
He was doing his best. The kids didn't know the difference. He fit right in.

[KinjaKahn]

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2004/03/22/image607668x.jpg

The Winter traitor/soldier reports for duty...

http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_85_images/073004_kerry_john2.jpg

ummm no thanks John...

[Jiddy78]

He did?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html

I googled this but I can't watch the video at the moment.

[Jiddy78]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html

I googled this but I can't watch the video at the moment.

Anyway, I was sitting there, and my Chief of Staff -- well, first of all, when we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. And you know, I thought it was pilot error and I was amazed that anybody could make such a terrible mistake. And something was wrong with the plane, or -- anyway, I'm sitting there, listening to the briefing, and Andy Card came and said, "America is under attack."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020105-3.html

[Jiddy78]

http://www.rense.com/general17/lie.htm

[IBC]

He did?

Yes. It was just a mixed up memory of a very stressful time.

[IBC]

If Kerry had nothing to hide, he would have released his war records in 2004.

He has released all his military records. You are defaming a war hero.

[Vegas]

He has released all his military records. You are defaming a war hero.

Wrong. He released his records to his hometown newspaper only.

[IBC]

Wrong. He released his records to his hometown newspaper only.

Oh, I see. He should have released all his military records! You have got to be kidding me. So there was a joint enterprise with him and a newspaper to keep all the bad stuff out of the press?

Has McCain released his? He has also said he has been seeking help for his temper. I want his medical records too! Good for the goose.......

[Vegas]

Oh, I see. He should have released all his military records! You have got to be kidding me. So there was a joint enterprise with him and a newspaper to keep all the bad stuff out of the press?

Has McCain released his? He has also said he has been seeking help for his temper. I want his medical records too! Good for the goose.......

When Kerry's military came into question during his campaign, why didn't he release all of the records? He was asked over and over to do so, yet he declined.

[IBC]

When Kerry's military came into question during his campaign, why didn't he release all of the records? He was asked over and over to do so, yet he declined.

So this is your proof? Answer my question Vegas. Are you convinced there was a joint enterprise between Kerry and his newspaper?

[Vegas]

So this is your proof? Answer my question Vegas. Are you convinced there was a joint enterprise between Kerry and his newspaper?

If GWB were asked to disclose information and he only gave it to the National Review, you'd be screaming bloody murder and you know it.

[domenick2x]

When Kerry's military came into question during his campaign, why didn't he release all of the records? He was asked over and over to do so, yet he declined.
Vegas,

Your role of administrator on this site is being questioned. Please release all data regarding your role here (including PMs and other confidential information) to me directly. I'm planning on digging through it to play hardball, but I want you to release it all to me without reviewing it first.

I'll be waiting.

[domenick2x]

If GWB were asked to disclose information and he only gave it to the National Review, you'd be screaming bloody murder and you know it.
Who did he give access to?

[Vegas]

Vegas,

Your role of administrator on this site is being questioned. Please release all data regarding your role here (including PMs and other confidential information) to me directly. I'm planning on digging through it to play hardball, but I want you to release it all to me without reviewing it first.

I'll be waiting.

I'll be like John Kerry and disclose everything to ryr.

[IBC]

If GWB were asked to disclose information and he only gave it to the National Review, you'd be screaming bloody murder and you know it.

The National Review? Is his hometown newspaper like them?

BTW, as usual, you didn't answer my question. You are working on the absence of disproof. I will not continue to play that game. It is like saying "can you disprove that GWB didn't do coke all through his National Guard service and force his girlfriend to have an abortion?" The worst kind of argument.

If you would like top answer my question about the joint enterprise, we can continue. If you want to keep throwing up this type of speculative crap I am done.

[IBC]

Vegas,

Your role of administrator on this site is being questioned. Please release all data regarding your role here (including PMs and other confidential information) to me directly. I'm planning on digging through it to play hardball, but I want you to release it all to me without reviewing it first.

I'll be waiting.

No, it would be accurate if it was disclosed to everyone. That is what Vegas was asking from Kerry.

[IBC]

I'll be like John Kerry and disclose everything to ryr.

Ahhh. So you think Kerry disclosed his information to a newspaper that wouldn't report all the horrible stuff in it? I see. Then we have nothing to discuss.

[Vegas]

No, it would be accurate if it was disclosed to everyone. That is what Vegas was asking from Kerry.

Being an admin on a privately owned site is hardly the same thing as running for President of the USA. And it's still crazy of Kerry not to have disclosed all of the information to discredit those who questioned his medals if he had nothing to hide.

[domenick2x]

I'll be like John Kerry and disclose everything to ryr.
Or maybe you could pull a Bush.

During the 2000 presidential campaign, various military records of Bush were made public by the Bush campaign.

On February 13, 2004, more than 700 additional pages of documents on Bush's service were released, including those from the National Personnel Records Center, under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act. This release is claimed by some to contradict the February 8, 2004, statement by Bush to Meet the Press interviewer Tim Russert that "We did [authorize the release of everything] in 2000, by the way." In response, Bush contended that he was referring only to documents already in his possession, as opposed to the newly released documents from military sources.

On June 22, 2004, The Associated Press sued the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Air Force, seeking access to all of Bush's records during his military service.

On July 8, 2004, the Pentagon reported that the microfilmed payroll records of Bush and numerous other service members had been inadvertently ruined in 1996 and 1997 by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service during a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm. The records lost included those covering July through September 1972, when Bush's claims of service in Alabama are in question, and the Pentagon reported that no paper backups could be found. CBS News military analyst Mitch Mitchell said there is no uniform or standard filing form and that most observers agree that National Guard records from that period are a mess.[39]

On July 23, 2004, the Pentagon reported that the records it had previously reported destroyed had been found. A Pentagon official said the earlier statement that the records were destroyed was an "inadvertent oversight." The Pentagon released computerized payroll records covering Bush's 1972 service. Like the records released earlier by the White House, the newly released documents did not indicate that Bush performed any drills, in Alabama or elsewhere, during July through September 1972.

On September 7, 2004, the White House released the flight logs recording the flights done by George Bush as a pilot. A Pentagon spokeswoman said the logs were found at the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. She said the logs were found among a batch of records sent to St. Louis from Norton Air Force Base in 1993, which were originally thought to contain records of active-duty officers rather than of National Guardsmen such as Bush.

On September 24, 2004, under court order resulting from an earlier FOIA lawsuit filed by the Associated Press, the Pentagon releases more documents.[40]

On September 29, 2004, the White House released a November 1974 document, saying it had been in Bush's personnel file and that it had been found by the Pentagon.

On October 5, 2004, more than a week after a court-imposed deadline to turn over all records of Bush's military service, the Texas Air National Guard produced two previously unreleased documents (four pages of records) that include Bush's orders for his last day of active duty in 1973.

On October 14, 2004, two weeks after Texas National Guard officials signed an oath swearing they had turned over all records, the Texas National Guard released 31 additional pages of documents found by two retired Army lawyers who went through Guard files under an agreement between the Texas National Guard and The Associated Press, which sued to gain access to the files. A Guard spokesman defended the continuing discoveries, saying Guard officials didn’t find all of Bush’s records because they are disorganized and in poor shape. "These boxes are full of dirt and rat (excrement) and dead bugs. They have never been sitting in an uncontrolled climate," said Lt. Col. John Stanford. "It’s a tough task to go through archives that were not set up in a way that you could easily go through them."[41]

[IBC]

Being an admin on a privately owned site is hardly the same thing as running for President of the USA. And it's still crazy of Kerry not to have disclosed all of the information to discredit those who questioned his medals if he had nothing to hide.

Again, you are implying the newspaper is hiding all this damning information?

[IBC]

Or maybe you could pull a Bush.

I agree, but really Bush has nothing to do with this. Vegas is implying a war hero did not deserve his medals and lied about his service. He has no evidence for this.

[domenick2x]

Again, you are implying the newspaper is hiding all this damning information?
Clearly. He's looking at the world through Red colored glasses.

[KinjaKahn]

Kerry is not a hero, hes an embellishing dirtbag who used the 3 purple heart rule to get out of duty. 3 purple hearts and no days off. Yeah! Then he threw the entire war effort under the bus, and became an honorary Viet Cong.

[IBC]

Kerry is not a hero, hes an embellishing dirtbag who used the 3 purple heart rule to get out of duty. 3 purple hearts and no days off. Yeah! Then he threw the entire war effort under the bus, and became an honorary Viet Cong.

Seriously? Would you like to address some of the points made in this thread? This just seems like trolling.

[Jiddy78]

When Kerry's military came into question during his campaign, why didn't he release all of the records? He was asked over and over to do so, yet he declined.

"That's none of your business" has always been a fine answer to me when asking ludicrous questions.....Questioning a military vet about records with negative intent only at hand is one of those times.

I would be fine with ANY vet telling a reporter and/or a citizen to eat his ass if his merit was questioned.

[IBC]

"That's none of your business" has always been a fine answer to me when asking ludicrous questions.....Questioning a military vet about records with negative intent only at hand is one of those times.

I would be fine with ANY vet telling a reporter and/or a citizen to eat his ass if his merit was questioned.

Agreed. We have a system setup in the military to determine honorable and dishonorable service.

[domenick2x]

Seriously? Would you like to address some of the points made in this thread? This just seems like trolling.
Seems?

[Roy Munson]

Anybody who lies about military service = John Kerry.

John Kerry: Just another lying liberal douche.

No righties would ever lie about military service.


I'm sorry, did I mistake this for a BS spewing contest?

[Roy Munson]

Kerry is not a hero, hes an embellishing dirtbag who used the 3 purple heart rule to get out of duty. 3 purple hearts and no days off. Yeah! Then he threw the entire war effort under the bus, and became an honorary Viet Cong.
Holy shit, I hadn't read past the first 3 lines in Vegas' first post and it seems this is a BS spewing contest.

[IBC]

Holy shit, I hadn't read past the first 3 lines in Vegas' first post and it seems this is a BS spewing contest.

The worst part about it is, this has been discussed already ad nauseum, and it is always the same arguments and the same unanswered questions from one side. Absence of evidence is not evidence for something else.

[Roy Munson]

The worst part about it is, this has been discussed already ad nauseum, and it is always the same arguments and the same unanswered questions from one side. Absence of evidence is not evidence for something else.
the absence of evidence that God doesn't exist = he exists...


please provide me evidence that you don't molest children... go.

[IBC]

the absence of evidence that God doesn't exist = he exists...


please provide me evidence that you don't molest children... go.

You first. Oh, and you had sex with a goat in the last two weeks also.

[IBC]

the absence of evidence that God doesn't exist = he exists...


please provide me evidence that you don't molest children... go.

The absence of actually being there for evolution proves Creationism also.

[Roy Munson]

You first. Oh, and you had sex with a goat in the last two weeks also.
male or female goat?

[IBC]

male or female goat?

Hermaphrodite.

[hannitykillspuppies]

If GWB were asked to disclose information and he only gave it to the National Review, you'd be screaming bloody murder and you know it.

the national review isn't a newspaper.

[Vegas]

The worst part about it is, this has been discussed already ad nauseum, and it is always the same arguments and the same unanswered questions from one side. Absence of evidence is not evidence for something else.

There are multiple people who served with Kerry that question his medals and you'll never believe them regardless of how credible their stories are. You're completely discounting their accounts just like I can question Kerry's account. Kerry is a liar and has no credibility. He lied about the Cambodia thing and he lied about the war atrocities. If that's the guy you choose to believe, you're welcome to do so.

[domenick2x]

There are multiple people who served with Kerry that question his medals and you'll never believe them regardless of how credible their stories are. You're completely discounting their accounts just like I can question Kerry's account. Kerry is a liar and has no credibility. He lied about the Cambodia thing and he lied about the war atrocities. If that's the guy you choose to believe, you're welcome to do so.
Served with?

Every man who served under him in Vietnam has confirmed the actions around his medals, if I read the backup correctly.

On the other hand, every officer that clearly has an issue with his post-Vietnam actions has questioned his medals.

[thrasymachus]

There are multiple people who served with Kerry that question his medals and you'll never believe them regardless of how credible their stories are. You're completely discounting their accounts just like I can question Kerry's account. Kerry is a liar and has no credibility. He lied about the Cambodia thing and he lied about the war atrocities. If that's the guy you choose to believe, you're welcome to do so.
You choose to believe a few people who allegedly served with Kerry as opposed to a committee that is set up to determine whether somebody is deserving of an award or not?

Your lack of objectivity is clear.

[Vegas]

You choose to believe a few people who allegedly served with Kerry as opposed to a committee that is set up to determine whether somebody is deserving of an award or not?

Your lack of objectivity is clear.

And you choose to ignore the fact that Kerry is a known liar when it comes to his Vietnam service. Your lack of objectivity is clear.

[Roy Munson]

Served with?

Every man who served under him in Vietnam has confirmed the actions around his medals, if I read the backup correctly.

On the other hand, every officer that clearly has an issue with his post-Vietnam actions has questioned his medals.
it seems you've chosen your side...

[thrasymachus]

And you choose to ignore the fact that Kerry is a known liar when it comes to his Vietnam service. Your lack of objectivity is clear.
You are factually incorrect. I've admitted that Kerry told something that was not true about his service in Vietnam. And yet, his actions are still not comparable to McGuinn.

[domenick2x]

And you choose to ignore the fact that Kerry is a known liar when it comes to his Vietnam service. Your lack of objectivity is clear.
He's not saying that Kerry was being honest.

You are saying that he was undeserving of the medals.

[Roy Munson]

You choose to believe a few people who allegedly served with Kerry as opposed to a committee that is set up to determine whether somebody is deserving of an award or not?

Your lack of objectivity is clear.
The people who awarded those medals should be dishonorably discharged for misleading the american people.

[IBC]

There are multiple people who served with Kerry that question his medals and you'll never believe them regardless of how credible their stories are. You're completely discounting their accounts just like I can question Kerry's account. Kerry is a liar and has no credibility. He lied about the Cambodia thing and he lied about the war atrocities. If that's the guy you choose to believe, you're welcome to do so.

Ok. Who served with him?

[IBC]

Served with?

Every man who served under him in Vietnam has confirmed the actions around his medals, if I read the backup correctly.

On the other hand, every officer that clearly has an issue with his post-Vietnam actions has questioned his medals.

Exactly.

[Vegas]

He's not saying that Kerry was being honest.

You are saying that he was undeserving of the medals.

I'm saying that there are people who I don't know to be liars like Kerry who tell a credible story of Kerry not deserving the medals.

[Vegas]

Ok. Who served with him?

You're playing a semantics game.

[thrasymachus]

I'm saying that there are people who I don't know to be liars like Kerry who tell a credible story of Kerry not deserving the medals.
Who?

Also, there are plenty of other people who you don't know to be liars who have told stories confirming Kerry's heroism.

Vegas, it's ok to admit you're wrong in some cases.

[domenick2x]

I'm saying that there are people who I don't know to be liars like Kerry who tell a credible story of Kerry not deserving the medals.
Ha.

"I don't know to be liars" does not mean they are not.

You choose to believe what you choose to believe.

[domenick2x]

You're playing a semantics game.
Pot, meet kettle.

What are the rules of this game again?

[IBC]

You're playing a semantics game.

No, I am not. You know why? Because everyone who served with him stood with him and you know it. Everyone who was actually there when he was wounded confirmed his story. Everyone else is saying it, not just dumb old liberal IBC. It is ok to be wrong.

[Roy Munson]

Pot, meet kettle.

What are the rules of this game again?
I'm right and you're wrong...

[Vegas]

No, I am not. You know why? Because everyone who served with him stood with him and you know it. Everyone who was actually there when he was wounded confirmed his story. Everyone else is saying it, not just dumb old liberal IBC. It is ok to be wrong.

I don't know that. You're playing semantics by limiting "served with" to only a small number of guys. There were other people who "served with" Kerry that you want to discount.

[domenick2x]

I don't know that. You're playing semantics by limiting "served with" to only a small number of guys. There were other people who "served with" Kerry that you want to discount.
NAME ONE.

[Vegas]

NAME ONE.

Wow! A demand with the caps lock on. It seems like you have sand in your vagina.

[IBC]

I don't know that. You're playing semantics by limiting "served with" to only a small number of guys. There were other people who "served with" Kerry that you want to discount.

Bullshit Vegas, and I am calling you on it. Prove it. Don't give me some front group, most of which never met Kerry. You are wrong. The men on his boat all supported him. One guy on another boat that rode with him contradicted him. I will go ahead and take every other guys word over that one, who stood with teh other swiftboaters who never even met Kerry. It was a total lie and a sham perpetrated on the American public. Sorry they got even smart guys like you top fall for it, but they did. You can dislike his ideals and his postwar actions, but you questioning his service is bullshit, especially when you have nothing to back it up. I am done unless you can produce something.

[IBC]

Wow! A demand with the caps lock on. It seems like you have sand in your vagina.

Then answer the question. You are just having trouble admitting you were wrong, and that your party played the dirtiest card, perhaps in the history of politics, that has ever been played.

[domenick2x]

Wow! A demand with the caps lock on. It seems like you have sand in your vagina.
No sand, no vagina. I'd appreciate a link to justify your allegations.

But you don't have one, otherwise you would have used it, per the standards here.

[Roy Munson]

Then answer the question. You are just having trouble admitting you were wrong, and that your party played the dirtiest card, perhaps in the history of politics, that has ever been played.
Well, they did say that McCain fathered a black baby...

[IBC]

Well, they did say that McCain fathered a black baby...

Yes, but that wasn't the same stage.

[KinjaKahn]

Should a purple heart be awarded for an injury that requires no missed time, and a band aid with a dab of neosporin?

[domenick2x]

Should a purple heart be awarded for an injury that requires no missed time, and a band aid with a dab of neosporin?
Depends on what the rules for Purple Hearts are. I believe that the form submitting for that require at least a superior officer's signature, if not several levels of approval.

[KinjaKahn]

Depends on what the rules for Purple Hearts are. I believe that the form submitting for that require at least a superior officer's signature, if not several levels of approval.
I am looking for an opinion not a recital of policy.

[Vegas]

No sand, no vagina. I'd appreciate a link to justify your allegations.

But you don't have one, otherwise you would have used it, per the standards here.

It's a ridiculous question. We all know who the guys are that made the allegations. And they did serve with Kerry. Just because they weren't on his boat doesn't mean they didn't serve with him.

[Roy Munson]

I am looking for an opinion not a recital of policy.
The facts behind the awards not important then?

[KinjaKahn]

The facts behind the awards not important then?
burn forearm on gun barrel, red mark... small blister... little pus... need more?

[thrasymachus]

Should a purple heart be awarded for an injury that requires no missed time, and a band aid with a dab of neosporin?
How many days, weeks, months, or years have you served overseas during wartime?

[KinjaKahn]

How many days, weeks, months, or years have you served overseas during wartime?
Relevant? I'm an Air Force Brat. First 17 years of my life were on Air Bases. My dad didn't want me to join. After seeing the care he got from the VA, and his subsequent death... I wouldn't and I won't join unless foreign troops are in the streets barking orders. I spent alot of time with 18-20 yr old airmen and women. the predominant attitude was this is a mistake... however if you have lesser options and going nowhere, the military can be a very enticing with the GI Bill. So liberal weasels whine about the military preying on the poor, some kids need the radical change in their life. Others don't. Now liberal weasels whine about college recruiting... I hate liberal minded individuals. the surprising this is these fucking liberal morons crave the same social structure that the military has.... officer's and nco's. 2 social classes... elite and the serf.

I would love for you to educate me on the military...

[thrasymachus]

Relevant? I'm an Air Force Brat. First 17 years of my life were on Air Bases. My dad didn't want me to join. After seeing the care he got from the VA, and his subsequent death... I wouldn't and I won't join unless foreign troops are in the streets barking orders. I spent alot of time with 18-20 yr old airmen and women. the predominant attitude was this is a mistake... however if you have lesser options and going nowhere, the military can be a very enticing with the GI Bill. So liberal weasels whine about the military preying on the poor, some kids need the radical change in their life. Others don't. Now liberal weasels whine about college recruiting... I hate liberal minded individuals. the surprising this is these fucking liberal morons crave the same social structure that the military has.... officer's and nco's. 2 social classes... elite and the serf.

I would love for you to educate me on the military...
When did I claim to have some superior knowledge to the military?

Rather, I'm simply saying that you are making light of all servicemen who go overseas and fight a war. Regardless of injury or not, they should be shown some minimum level of respect for their service to this country. Kerry went overseas during wartime. He was injured during his service to this nation. And he was given awards for what he did and what happened to him while serving this nation.

You may not agree with what he did after the war. You may not agree with the medals he received. You may think he's a complete asshole. But you should at least offer some respect for his service to this nation, whether you disagree with the war he engaged in, his actions after that war, or his current politics.

Or do you not think that soldiers who go overseas in time of war don't deserve respect for their service to this nation?

[Smoke681]

Relevant? I'm an Air Force Brat. First 17 years of my life were on Air Bases. My dad didn't want me to join. After seeing the care he got from the VA, and his subsequent death... I wouldn't and I won't join unless foreign troops are in the streets barking orders. I spent alot of time with 18-20 yr old airmen and women. the predominant attitude was this is a mistake... however if you have lesser options and going nowhere, the military can be a very enticing with the GI Bill. So liberal weasels whine about the military preying on the poor, some kids need the radical change in their life. Others don't. Now liberal weasels whine about college recruiting... I hate liberal minded individuals. the surprising this is these fucking liberal morons crave the same social structure that the military has.... officer's and nco's. 2 social classes... elite and the serf.

I would love for you to educate me on the military...

Are you implying that I had lesser options and wasn't going anywhere? Are you, like John Kerry, implying that I'm stupid?

I was accepted at 8 different schools before making the choice to serve my country, from PSU to OSU to Indiana Wesleyen to Alabama. I decided to do something different.

Some of this Nation's smartest men and women are in uniform, or were. Bite your fucking tongue.

[Smoke681]

Relevant? I'm an Air Force Brat. First 17 years of my life were on Air Bases. My dad didn't want me to join. After seeing the care he got from the VA, and his subsequent death... I wouldn't and I won't join unless foreign troops are in the streets barking orders. I spent alot of time with 18-20 yr old airmen and women. the predominant attitude was this is a mistake... however if you have lesser options and going nowhere, the military can be a very enticing with the GI Bill. So liberal weasels whine about the military preying on the poor, some kids need the radical change in their life. Others don't. Now liberal weasels whine about college recruiting... I hate liberal minded individuals. the surprising this is these fucking liberal morons crave the same social structure that the military has.... officer's and nco's. 2 social classes... elite and the serf.

I would love for you to educate me on the military...
Furthermore, that "military social structure" is different from branch to branch.

In my beloved Marine Corps, everyone is a Marine and endured the same pain and sacrifice to earn that Title. There are officers, warrant officers, SNCOs, NCOs, non-NCOs...but we're ALL Marines.

[Jiddy78]

Are you implying that I had lesser options and wasn't going anywhere? Are you, like John Kerry, implying that I'm stupid?

I was accepted at 8 different schools before making the choice to serve my country, from PSU to OSU to Indiana Wesleyen to Alabama. I decided to do something different.

Some of this Nation's smartest men and women are in uniform, or were. Bite your fucking tongue.

Would you hold it against me if I said this post screams of insecurity?

If so, I'll just bite my tongue for you...but I won't draw blood.

[Jiddy78]

Furthermore, that "military social structure" is different from branch to branch.

In my beloved Marine Corps, everyone is a Marine and endured the same pain and sacrifice to earn that Title. There are officers, warrant officers, SNCOs, NCOs, non-NCOs...but we're ALL Marines.


Has to be that way...All you whores wouldn't stand for it if the whole lot of ya didn't get 20 year gimme pensions...

[domenick2x]

It's a ridiculous question. We all know who the guys are that made the allegations. And they did serve with Kerry. Just because they weren't on his boat doesn't mean they didn't serve with him.
The short list I saw involved guys who weren't even in the theatre of operations during his time of service. Therefore, unless you'd like to declare some grand left wing conspiracy to get young Officer Kerry out of Vietnam as quickly as possible, I'm comfortable in discounting those opinions as clouded by his later testimony.

[domenick2x]

I am looking for an opinion not a recital of policy.
And my opinion is that I don't make the policy on Purple Hearts. I know my father got two of them. I'm sure that thousands were earned.

How many of them fit into your description? How many decorated soldiers should have their earned medals yanked from them?

[IBC]

The short list I saw involved guys who weren't even in the theatre of operations during his time of service.

Exactly right Dom. Don't expect that link, and expect to have this conversation again.

Senator Kerry served his country honorably and with great distinction. That is it, and that is that. Nobody has credibly claimed otherwise, though Bush did win a second term because of the servicemen that have been discredited.

[KinjaKahn]

Kerry the winter traitor was in vietnam less than 100 days and was awarded 3 purple hearts and missed no days of duty to his "injuries", and got his get out of Nam free card.

Keep believing his story... he's garbage.

[thrasymachus]

Kerry the winter traitor was in vietnam less than 100 days and was awarded 3 purple hearts and missed no days of duty to his "injuries", and got his get out of Nam free card.

Keep believing his story... he's garbage.
3 months of service overseas isn't worth any of your respect?

What story are we believing? You know more about John Kerry than the U.S. military and the men he served with?

You're a fucking joke, man.

[ryr8828]

Has to be that way...All you whores wouldn't stand for it if the whole lot of ya didn't get 20 year gimme pensions...Servicemen with 20 years in deserve their pension. It's no where near a gimme from what I understand of the service.

[Smoke681]

Would you hold it against me if I said this post screams of insecurity?

If so, I'll just bite my tongue for you...but I won't draw blood.
Screams of insecurity? You'll forgive me if I defend myself and those I serve with against absurd allegations that we are dumb and/or joined the military because we had no other options in life.

It's amazing we can even fire our weapons or read the manuals, we're so fucking stupid.

[Smoke681]

Has to be that way...All you whores wouldn't stand for it if the whole lot of ya didn't get 20 year gimme pensions...
Gimme pension eh.

You work for 20 years for an organization that sends you around the world to hostile areas, YOU find out what it feels like to have a bullet graze so close to your head you feel the heat of the round, YOU spend more time away from your family than you spend with your family, you endure rigorous physical fitness standards for 20 years (navy and air force excluded, of course), YOU make all these sacrifices for a largely ungrateful nation.

Then come tell me about my gimme pension.

Disclaimer: I am not complaining about ANY of the above, nor am I thumping my chest. Just illustrating why 20 years is certainly ample time to work under these conditions and earn a retirement.

Furthermore, for what it's worth, the majority of military retirees do not only serve 20 years. Most serve 22-25 years, some up to 30+ - there's a study about that somewhere but I haven't the time to search for and provide a link.

Also, law enforcement officers are eligble for retirement after 20 years of duty. Is that also a "gimme pension".

Maybe I'm taking you all wrong Jiddy, but you really disappointed me with these remarks.

[ryr8828]

Gimme pension eh.

You work for 20 years for an organization that sends you around the world to hostile areas, YOU find out what it feels like to have a bullet graze so close to your head you feel the heat of the round, YOU spend more time away from your family than you spend with your family, you endure rigorous physical fitness standards for 20 years (navy and air force excluded, of course), YOU make all these sacrifices for a largely ungrateful nation.

Then come tell me about my gimme pension.

Disclaimer: I am not complaining about ANY of the above, nor am I thumping my chest. Just illustrating why 20 years is certainly ample time to work under these conditions and earn a retirement.

Furthermore, for what it's worth, the majority of military retirees do not only serve 20 years. Most serve 22-25 years, some up to 30+ - there's a study about that somewhere but I haven't the time to search for and provide a link.

Also, law enforcement officers are eligble for retirement after 20 years of duty. Is that also a "gimme pension".

Maybe I'm taking you all wrong Jiddy, but you really disappointed me with these remarks.

For the ones I've been associated with, most definitely. I should say some of the ones I've been associated with.

[Roy Munson]

Relevant? I'm an Air Force Brat. First 17 years of my life were on Air Bases. My dad didn't want me to join. After seeing the care he got from the VA, and his subsequent death... I wouldn't and I won't join unless foreign troops are in the streets barking orders. I spent alot of time with 18-20 yr old airmen and women. the predominant attitude was this is a mistake... however if you have lesser options and going nowhere, the military can be a very enticing with the GI Bill. So liberal weasels whine about the military preying on the poor, some kids need the radical change in their life. Others don't. Now liberal weasels whine about college recruiting... I hate liberal minded individuals. the surprising this is these fucking liberal morons crave the same social structure that the military has.... officer's and nco's. 2 social classes... elite and the serf.

I would love for you to educate me on the military...
You ARE the male version of your avatar. If a liberal agreed with you, you'd probably blow your brains out.

[Roy Munson]

Screams of insecurity? You'll forgive me if I defend myself and those I serve with against absurd allegations that we are dumb and/or joined the military because we had no other options in life.

It's amazing we can even fire our weapons or read the manuals, we're so fucking stupid.
I'm amazed you can post on the internet...

seriously though, to say people only join our military because there is nothing else out there for them is a vast generalization. Sure, I knew a couple guys in HS that had no other options so they up and joined, but the vast majority of them washed out pretty early.

Ever wish you had hit college first and went in as an officer?

[Smoke681]

I'm amazed you can post on the internet...

seriously though, to say people only join our military because there is nothing else out there for them is a vast generalization. Sure, I knew a couple guys in HS that had no other options so they up and joined, but the vast majority of them washed out pretty early.

Ever wish you had hit college first and went in as an officer?
I get that question a lot. I do not wish that. There's only one reason I'd like to be an officer - the money. And that's not a good enough reason. Military officers are required to essentially be politicians if they hope to advance beyond, say, 0-5 (Lt. Col in the USMC). Sorry, that's not for me. The comraderie and brotherhood of the enlisted ranks is awesome and I love every minute of that.

The other generalization that I can't stand is that it's the poor folks who join the military. My family wasn't "rich", but I was by no means poor. Had I chosen to go to college, my parents could have paid the way. I remind them often of the favor I did for them. :D

There's a song by System of a Down (I f*ing love SOAD) that parallels another popular theory; that our country's leaders "send the poor to the war". Huh? Really? They hand pick and select only the poor folk and ship em off to battle, eh? This is a volunteer military, the government is only sending those who wanted to go in the first place. It's not like GW went to the streets of Newark and Compton and rounded up some homeless guys in their 20's and sent them off. Fucking retarded ass theory right there, and shows a lot of ignorance.

If this military was half as poor and stupid as some believe it is, wouldn't you wonder how we get anything done? Again, it must be simply amazing to these people that we can actually fire advanced weapons systems, drive tanks, fly planes, plot maps, gather intelligence, exploit other nations' intelligence, etc. Not bad for a bunch of poor dumb kids.

[Roy Munson]

I get that question a lot. I do not wish that. There's only one reason I'd like to be an officer - the money. And that's not a good enough reason. Military officers are required to essentially be politicians if they hope to advance beyond, say, 0-5 (Lt. Col in the USMC). Sorry, that's not for me. The comraderie and brotherhood of the enlisted ranks is awesome and I love every minute of that.

The other generalization that I can't stand is that it's the poor folks who join the military. My family wasn't "rich", but I was by no means poor. Had I chosen to go to college, my parents could have paid the way. I remind them often of the favor I did for them. :D

There's a song by System of a Down (I f*ing love SOAD) that parallels another popular theory; that our country's leaders "send the poor to the war". Huh? Really? They hand pick and select only the poor folk and ship em off to battle, eh? This is a volunteer military, the government is only sending those who wanted to go in the first place. It's not like GW went to the streets of Newark and Compton and rounded up some homeless guys in their 20's and sent them off. Fucking retarded ass theory right there, and shows a lot of ignorance.

If this military was half as poor and stupid as some believe it is, wouldn't you wonder how we get anything done? Again, it must be simply amazing to these people that we can actually fire advanced weapons systems, drive tanks, fly planes, plot maps, gather intelligence, exploit other nations' intelligence, etc. Not bad for a bunch of poor dumb kids.
The biggest thing that gives people the notion that its the "poor man's army" is the location of most of the recruiting centers. And then people tend to jump to the equality of poor = stupid.

[Smoke681]

The biggest thing that gives people the notion that its the "poor man's army" is the location of most of the recruiting centers. And then people tend to jump to the equality of poor = stupid.
?? Recruiting stations are located in central, convenient locations that are conducive to reaching as many potential recruits as possible.

I'm not sure where you get this idea from. I mean, do you know where each recruiting center is located in the country, or just in your area? If it just so happens that one is located in a poor area in your community, doesn't mean it's like that everywhere.

[ryr8828]

The biggest thing that gives people the notion that its the "poor man's army" is the location of most of the recruiting centers. And then people tend to jump to the equality of poor = stupid.
It's wiring. It's liberal opinion. It's emotions.

I had to walk away from a friend of mine in a bar when we were having a political discussion last week. I walked away because I like this guy, he was raising his voice, I'd make 2 of him and I was getting mad. Since I live in CCCPIllinois and smoking is illegal in a bar, I took it as an excuse to go out and smoke. I told him that to me his status as a Vietnam Vet gave him a pass and to go get fucked because he's crazy.

He was all over the poor and disadvantged people are the only ones who go in the military now, because some kid he knows signed up again because they got a $10,000 bonus. He said that's just wrong, the people with money shouldn't be able to send the poor people to fight. I said Bullshit. He says this kid had no other out because of Bush's economy except to join the service. I say You're fucking nuts. Then I needed air. Before I got air I said You're so full of fucking shit. You're a big shot in the Laborer's Union, I guess you couldn't get this poor deprived motherfucker a job? Get him in your club of working men? Get him one of those union laborer jobs? Even if you couldn't, you could get him on permit with another trade. Hell, I'm not even a union officer but I can get a buddy who is down on his luck a job on permit with my union or another union where I know people. When work is good, and it's been good. Right now, with all the gloom and doom in the media construction trades are working 7 days a week if they want to.

The asskicker in this is this guy's son is also in the military. Never been to Iraq that his father has told me. He's happy there from what his father has told me.

I still consider him my friend, the old adage is not to discuss politics or religion at a bar.

[thrasymachus]

It's wiring. It's liberal opinion. It's emotions.

I had to walk away from a friend of mine in a bar when we were having a political discussion last week. I walked away because I like this guy, he was raising his voice, I'd make 2 of him and I was getting mad. Since I live in CCCPIllinois and smoking is illegal in a bar, I took it as an excuse to go out and smoke. I told him that to me his status as a Vietnam Vet gave him a pass and to go get fucked because he's crazy.

He was all over the poor and disadvantged people are the only ones who go in the military now, because some kid he knows signed up again because they got a $10,000 bonus. He said that's just wrong, the people with money shouldn't be able to send the poor people to fight. I said Bullshit. He says this kid had no other out because of Bush's economy except to join the service. I say You're fucking nuts. Then I needed air. Before I got air I said You're so full of fucking shit. You're a big shot in the Laborer's Union, I guess you couldn't get this poor deprived motherfucker a job? Get him in your club of working men? Get him one of those union laborer jobs? Even if you couldn't, you could get him on permit with another trade. Hell, I'm not even a union officer but I can get a buddy who is down on his luck a job on permit with my union or another union where I know people. When work is good, and it's been good. Right now, with all the gloom and doom in the media construction trades are working 7 days a week if they want to.

The asskicker in this is this guy's son is also in the military. Never been to Iraq that his father has told me. He's happy there from what his father has told me.

I still consider him my friend, the old adage is not to discuss politics or religion at a bar.
While a lot of these kids have choices, many of them aren't aware that they have choices other than the military -- or they don't view the choices they are aware of as viable choices. That's why many people are opposed to allowing recruiting officers into high schools.

It's a tough call. If women in many states have to have informed consent before having an abortion, shouldn't high school students signing up for the military have to give informed consent before signing up for the military? Maybe this is a requirement but I'm not aware of it. I'm just rambling here a little.

[Jiddy78]

Screams of insecurity? You'll forgive me if I defend myself and those I serve with against absurd allegations that we are dumb and/or joined the military because we had no other options in life.

It's amazing we can even fire our weapons or read the manuals, we're so fucking stupid.

You give extremes...You get them in return. Reap what you sow thing.

[Jiddy78]

Gimme pension eh.

You work for 20 years for an organization that sends you around the world to hostile areas, YOU find out what it feels like to have a bullet graze so close to your head you feel the heat of the round, YOU spend more time away from your family than you spend with your family, you endure rigorous physical fitness standards for 20 years (navy and air force excluded, of course), YOU make all these sacrifices for a largely ungrateful nation.

Then come tell me about my gimme pension.

Disclaimer: I am not complaining about ANY of the above, nor am I thumping my chest. Just illustrating why 20 years is certainly ample time to work under these conditions and earn a retirement.

Furthermore, for what it's worth, the majority of military retirees do not only serve 20 years. Most serve 22-25 years, some up to 30+ - there's a study about that somewhere but I haven't the time to search for and provide a link.

Also, law enforcement officers are eligble for retirement after 20 years of duty. Is that also a "gimme pension".

Maybe I'm taking you all wrong Jiddy, but you really disappointed me with these remarks.


I'm sorry...I guess all the military men in the history of the world got 20 year pensions....Oh wait...They didn't....Some are just entitled enough to bankrupt that which they "defend."

Furthermore, I'm more than willing (and have) to indict the public sector across the board...Military is included with that...Just what it is.

[thrasymachus]

While a lot of these kids have choices, many of them aren't aware that they have choices other than the military -- or they don't view the choices they are aware of as viable choices. That's why many people are opposed to allowing recruiting officers into high schools.

It's a tough call. If women in many states have to have informed consent before having an abortion, shouldn't high school students signing up for the military have to give informed consent before signing up for the military? Maybe this is a requirement but I'm not aware of it. I'm just rambling here a little.
I think people would feel more comfortable if they knew the young men joining the military were informed about their decision.

Maybe it's none of those people's business what these young men are thinking when they sign up. Probably not. But having an informed consent requirement would certainly flatten the arguments against military recruiting.

Again, I'm not sure if there is one or not. Anyone know?

[ryr8828]

I think people would feel more comfortable if they knew the young men joining the military were informed about their decision.

Maybe it's none of those people's business what these young men are thinking when they sign up. Probably not. But having an informed consent requirement would certainly flatten the arguments against military recruiting.

Again, I'm not sure if there is one or not. Anyone know?
All of the ones I knew or know who joined had their mind made up to do it and there was no talking them out of it. Patriotism? Maybe. There is nothing wrong with patriotism.

One died in Iraq, one got hurt in basic and was let go, one wasn't accepted due to medical and one resigned before the oath.

Aaron Pickering died in Iraq. His mom has lots of letters where he wrote her telling how proud he was about the good things they were doing for the people of Iraq, especially the children.

[thrasymachus]

All of the ones I knew or know who joined had their mind made up to do it and there was no talking them out of it. Patriotism? Maybe. There is nothing wrong with patriotism.

One died in Iraq, one got hurt in basic and was let go, one wasn't accepted due to medical and one resigned before the oath.

Aaron Pickering died in Iraq. His mom has lots of letters where he wrote her telling how proud he was about the good things they were doing for the people of Iraq, especially the children.
It's probably the case that their mind is made up. Some sort of "informed consent" requirement would probably silence the liberal critics a bit, though.

[Roy Munson]

?? Recruiting stations are located in central, convenient locations that are conducive to reaching as many potential recruits as possible.

I'm not sure where you get this idea from. I mean, do you know where each recruiting center is located in the country, or just in your area? If it just so happens that one is located in a poor area in your community, doesn't mean it's like that everywhere.
I'm just talking about my area. Maybe it just so happens that the centrally located areas around me are in shit poor places.

[hannitykillspuppies]

Kerry the winter traitor was in vietnam less than 100 days and was awarded 3 purple hearts and missed no days of duty to his "injuries", and got his get out of Nam free card.

Keep believing his story... he's garbage.you're garbage. i don't give a shit if you disagree with his political views. the man was in the military. he was in vietnam. he was in combat. you questioning his service or any other veteran's service to this country is pathetic.

[LSU]

The only good soldier is a conservative soldier.

Or so it seems. By some.

Few, actually.

[Jiddy78]

The only good soldier is a conservative soldier.

Or so it seems. By some.

Few, actually.

Calculating the amount needed to guarantee many public sector pensions in perpetuity (as they are, in many cases, now offered drop plans) is quite depressing for someone in the private sector........unless you work in healthcare or on wall street.....

[LSU]

Calculating the amount needed to guarantee many public sector pensions in perpetuity (as they are, in many cases, now offered drop plans) is quite depressing for someone in the private sector........unless you work in healthcare or on wall street.....


I look forward to my public sector guarantee in 20-30 years, and I thank you in advance for your contribution.

[Jiddy78]

I look forward to my public sector guarantee in 20-30 years, and I thank you in advance for your contribution.

No chance....The boomers will suck it dry and you will be canned between year 17 and 19-leaving you nothing- and the press will not jump all over it because you are just some scientist Darwin freak.

I should apologize to you.

[Smoke681]

I'm seeing some bitterness and jealousy in this thread, that much is for sure.

[domenick2x]

Kerry the winter traitor was in vietnam less than 100 days and was awarded 3 purple hearts and missed no days of duty to his "injuries", and got his get out of Nam free card.

Keep believing his story... he's garbage.
I'll mention that to my father when I see him tomorrow.

2 Purple Hearts, one missed day of service in his full tour.

Guess you could say that a Huey pilot shouldn't have 'light duty' count as 'days of service', but they do.

[hannitykillspuppies]

I'll mention that to my father when I see him tomorrow.

2 Purple Hearts, one missed day of service in his full tour.

Guess you could say that a Huey pilot shouldn't have 'light duty' count as 'days of service', but they do.clearly doesn't deserve them than.

[Smoke681]

I'll mention that to my father when I see him tomorrow.

2 Purple Hearts, one missed day of service in his full tour.

Guess you could say that a Huey pilot shouldn't have 'light duty' count as 'days of service', but they do.
Did your father retire from the military?

If so, he's REALLY a bastard.

[domenick2x]

Did your father retire from the military?

If so, he's REALLY a bastard.
He served out his term, he did not go career.

Interestingly enough, he knew he was going to be at risk for the draft, so he signed up. During training, the group was asked if anyone wanted to be an officer, so he signed up for OCS.

During OCS, the group was asked if anyone wanted to learn to fly helicopters. He volunteered.

His hopes through all this was that perhaps the war would be over before he had to go over.

Alas, he ran out of options, did his tour (including being shot on his first mission (thank god for chickenplate armor) and being shot down once) and came home. Served out his term, retired as a Captain.

[Smoke681]

He served out his term, he did not go career.

Interestingly enough, he knew he was going to be at risk for the draft, so he signed up. During training, the group was asked if anyone wanted to be an officer, so he signed up for OCS.

During OCS, the group was asked if anyone wanted to learn to fly helicopters. He volunteered.

His hopes through all this was that perhaps the war would be over before he had to go over.

Alas, he ran out of options, did his tour (including being shot on his first mission (thank god for chickenplate armor) and being shot down once) and came home. Served out his term, retired as a Captain.
Sounds like he's got some stories to tell for sure.

[domenick2x]

Sounds like he's got some stories to tell for sure.
He doesn't talk about it much, to be honest. I got most of those details out of him when I signed up for ROTC in college.

But I wasn't really interested in going Army, I was mostly just curious about it.

[Smoke681]

He doesn't talk about it much, to be honest. I got most of those details out of him when I signed up for ROTC in college.

But I wasn't really interested in going Army, I was mostly just curious about it.
My father in law was an ordnance guy in vietnam, he volunteered for two tours over there (one year each). He was nuts back then. He craved the danger and violence. I haven't gotten much out of him, and we've had some great discussions about miltiary and such. He loves me and reminds me often how pleased he is that his daughter married a serviceman...but he still won't get too into the details.

I understand though. It's difficult to talk about with someone who wasn't there. They just won't get it like you do.

[domenick2x]

My father in law was an ordnance guy in vietnam, he volunteered for two tours over there (one year each). He was nuts back then. He craved the danger and violence. I haven't gotten much out of him, and we've had some great discussions about miltiary and such. He loves me and reminds me often how pleased he is that his daughter married a serviceman...but he still won't get too into the details.

I understand though. It's difficult to talk about with someone who wasn't there. They just won't get it like you do.
One of my ROTC instructors actually served in a unit that was often supported by my father's unit. They were in some of the same action, Sgt Carter on the ground while my father was flying support above.

[Smoke681]

One of my ROTC instructors actually served in a unit that was often supported by my father's unit. They were in some of the same action, Sgt Carter on the ground while my father was flying support above.
Small world, eh?

Here's something I battle with every now and again: How will I feel if when he turns 18, my son comes to me and tells me he's joiing the USMC, or any other branch?

This world is only getting more unstable, more violent, and the parent in me might cringe. Of course, I'd let him do whatever he wants to do with his life and I'd support him 1000%, but deep down there's no doubt I'd fear.

[Roy Munson]

Small world, eh?

Here's something I battle with every now and again: How will I feel if when he turns 18, my son comes to me and tells me he's joiing the USMC, or any other branch?

This world is only getting more unstable, more violent, and the parent in me might cringe. Of course, I'd let him do whatever he wants to do with his life and I'd support him 1000%, but deep down there's no doubt I'd fear.
as long as its not the Air Force...

[domenick2x]

Small world, eh?

Here's something I battle with every now and again: How will I feel if when he turns 18, my son comes to me and tells me he's joiing the USMC, or any other branch?

This world is only getting more unstable, more violent, and the parent in me might cringe. Of course, I'd let him do whatever he wants to do with his life and I'd support him 1000%, but deep down there's no doubt I'd fear.
Absolutely. In an ideal world, you'd have wiped out all the bad guys and we'd be at eternal peace.

But think of it this way - you'll be ideally situated to advise him on the risks out there. I went to college, but my parents weren't particularly able to advise me on that due to a number of factors. My father had some advice about the military, which is why he encouraged me to test the ROTC option.

[domenick2x]

as long as its not the Air Force...
The Coast Guard seems relatively safe, without that flyboy stigma.

[Smoke681]

The Coast Guard seems relatively safe, without that flyboy stigma.
I don't know. I see the Coasties out there in the hurricanes and other nasty storms attempting to rescue boaters and such....they deal with plenty of danger.

Honestly, if my son came to me and wanted to join the military, I'm very positive I'd likely walk with him right down to the USMC recruiter. "If you're going to do it, son, you may as well do it right"

[domenick2x]

I don't know. I see the Coasties out there in the hurricanes and other nasty storms attempting to rescue boaters and such....they deal with plenty of danger.

Honestly, if my son came to me and wanted to join the military, I'm very positive I'd likely walk with him right down to the USMC recruiter. "If you're going to do it, son, you may as well do it right"
I agree, I think that if he wants to go, he should go all the way.

[Jiddy78]

I'm seeing some bitterness and jealousy in this thread, that much is for sure.

Boasting as well.

[Smoke681]

Boasting as well.
Wah.

You're a work.

[Jiddy78]

Wah.

You're a work.

Somebody's gotta let the public sector know they're watching them...and can't live in fear of the respect demon.

You protect my right to call you a whore. I respect that. Just not the public sector's compensation.

I fully understand the dangers that are being confronted by soldiers/police/fire...and have no problem with substantial benefits for the families of those that are, in fact, lost via insurance/pension/otherwise...but a man that lives and works 20 years walking on my dime over 40 or more? While my retirement plan is subject to the failings of the market, everything someone of the public sector gets is guaranteed? I don't think so. A public servant is exactly that...Somehow over a period of time it has become a servant public. I'm not down with that....and I'm not the only one that feels that way.

In the meantime, I have public sector folk boasting about these benefits...and they do so because they are just that...boastful...and they refer to me as a whiner AND, a recent coup de grace at YOUR whim: they downplay my education and all the work and sacrifice and PAYMENT I put into it, even in the most indirect manner possible that sucks ass. The same education that many times is PAID for them via that public sector job..another nice perk on my dime. Hell f*cking no I say to all of it.

If that makes me a jealous, whining "work" of a person...So be it.

[Smoke681]

Somebody's gotta let the public sector know they're watching them...and can't live in fear of the respect demon.

You protect my right to call you a whore. I respect that. Just not the public sector's compensation.

I fully understand the dangers that are being confronted by soldiers/police/fire...and have no problem with substantial benefits for the families of those that are, in fact, lost via insurance/pension/otherwise...but a man that lives and works 20 years walking on my dime over 40 or more? While my retirement plan is subject to the failings of the market, everything someone of the public sector gets is guaranteed? I don't think so. A public servant is exactly that...Somehow over a period of time it has become a servant public. I'm not down with that....and I'm not the only one that feels that way.

In the meantime, I have public sector folk boasting about these benefits...and they do so because they are just that...boastful...and they refer to me as a whiner AND, a recent coup de grace at YOUR whim: they downplay my education and all the work and sacrifice and PAYMENT I put into it, even in the most indirect manner possible that sucks ass. The same education that many times is PAID for them via that public sector job..another nice perk on my dime. Hell f*cking no I say to all of it.

If that makes me a jealous, whining "work" of a person...So be it.
So, the bottom line is that you think it's unfair that public sector folks can draw a pension after they retire that is guaranteed and not part of the social security fiasco, and that we can essentially be worry-free about whether or not it will be there when we DO retire, and you're also pissed that it's on your dime.

Roger that.

Maybe us "public sector" folks (military, police, firemen to be more specific) think it's unfair that you can go through your life never having to lay your life on the line for your job.

Maybe we think it's unfair that you'll never know what it feels like to tell your wife that you are about to go to a hostile area, and that your safe return is not guaranteed. That the last kiss you give her before you leave maybe be just that - the last.

Maybe it's unfair that you'll never know what it feels like to tuck in your child one night and wonder if it's the last time you'll ever have that privelege.

Maybe it's unfair that you can purchase yourself a home, settle into it, and not fear or worry that in 2 years you will be leaving that home to establish a new one somewhere else. Repeat every few years as necessary for your entire career.

Maybe it's unfair that should you choose or be forced to work 90 hours per week when you normally work 40, your pay would be doubled due to drawing overtime pay or other compensation.

Maybe it's unfair that you aren't required to maintain a certain weight in accordance with your height for 20+ years...and you don't have to worry that you'll be booted from your job should your weight stray from those boundaries.

Maybe my wife think it's unfair that a civilian wife can pursue a career if she so desires, because military wives don't have it that easy. It's difficult to have a career as a military wife when employers aren't so interested in hiring a woman that will only work for them for a couple years and leave.

Maybe my wife thinks it's unfair that while she has to act as a single mom for more months than not, your wife knows she has you to help her at all times.

Maybe my son will think it's unfair that Daddy has to miss his first baseball game, his first steps, his first day of school, or any other major event in his life because his country needs him elsewhere.

Indeed I chose this job and this lifestyle, and again I don't complain a bit. But when I hear a civilian cry "unfair" about the way the military is compensated, you'll forgive me if the term "whiner" doesn't enter into my mind.

[domenick2x]

So, the bottom line is that you think it's unfair that public sector folks can draw a pension after they retire that is guaranteed and not part of the social security fiasco, and that we can essentially be worry-free about whether or not it will be there when we DO retire, and you're also pissed that it's on your dime.

Roger that.

Maybe us "public sector" folks (military, police, firemen to be more specific) think it's unfair that you can go through your life never having to lay your life on the line for your job.....


You clearly have a skewed view of HR work or Tax Accounting....

[LSU]

Somebody's gotta let the public sector know they're watching them...and can't live in fear of the respect demon.

You protect my right to call you a whore. I respect that. Just not the public sector's compensation.

I fully understand the dangers that are being confronted by soldiers/police/fire...and have no problem with substantial benefits for the families of those that are, in fact, lost via insurance/pension/otherwise...but a man that lives and works 20 years walking on my dime over 40 or more? While my retirement plan is subject to the failings of the market, everything someone of the public sector gets is guaranteed? I don't think so. A public servant is exactly that...Somehow over a period of time it has become a servant public. I'm not down with that....and I'm not the only one that feels that way.

In the meantime, I have public sector folk boasting about these benefits...and they do so because they are just that...boastful...and they refer to me as a whiner AND, a recent coup de grace at YOUR whim: they downplay my education and all the work and sacrifice and PAYMENT I put into it, even in the most indirect manner possible that sucks ass. The same education that many times is PAID for them via that public sector job..another nice perk on my dime. Hell f*cking no I say to all of it.

If that makes me a jealous, whining "work" of a person...So be it.


Don't get pissed at me for having the wherewithal to jockey for position at the most productive teat.

[Smoke681]

Don't get pissed at me for having the wherewithal to jockey for position at the most productive teat.
I have no idea what you just said.

Dumb it down for me, I'm stupid and in the military.

[domenick2x]

I have no idea what you just said.

Dumb it down for me, I'm stupid and in the military.
"Don't hate the playa, hate the game."

[LSU]

I have no idea what you just said.

Dumb it down for me, I'm stupid and in the military.



People that train for and acquire jobs in the public sector know what sort of benefits and such awaits them.

So do people that choose not to either train for or pursue said jobs.

If one chooses not to pursue that way, and then bitch about people that do...
tough titties.

[LSU]

"Don't hate the playa, hate the game."


Precisely.

[Jiddy78]

People that train for and acquire jobs in the public sector know what sort of benefits and such awaits them.

So do people that choose not to either train for or pursue said jobs.

If one chooses not to pursue that way, and then bitch about people that do...
tough titties.


A "choice" paradigm you are arguing under is irrelevant if the private sector fails at the hands of the public.

[Jiddy78]

A "choice" paradigm you are arguing under is irrelevant if the private sector fails at the hands of the public.

Sorry...illevernt.

[LSU]

A "choice" paradigm you are arguing under is irrelevant if the private sector fails at the hands of the public.



Under the government we currently have, the private sector will always do well, at the expense of the private sector, of course.

[Jiddy78]

So, the bottom line is that you think it's unfair that public sector folks can draw a pension after they retire that is guaranteed and not part of the social security fiasco, and that we can essentially be worry-free about whether or not it will be there when we DO retire, and you're also pissed that it's on your dime.

Roger that.

Maybe us "public sector" folks (military, police, firemen to be more specific) think it's unfair that you can go through your life never having to lay your life on the line for your job.

Maybe we think it's unfair that you'll never know what it feels like to tell your wife that you are about to go to a hostile area, and that your safe return is not guaranteed. That the last kiss you give her before you leave maybe be just that - the last.

Maybe it's unfair that you'll never know what it feels like to tuck in your child one night and wonder if it's the last time you'll ever have that privelege.

Maybe it's unfair that you can purchase yourself a home, settle into it, and not fear or worry that in 2 years you will be leaving that home to establish a new one somewhere else. Repeat every few years as necessary for your entire career.

Maybe it's unfair that should you choose or be forced to work 90 hours per week when you normally work 40, your pay would be doubled due to drawing overtime pay or other compensation.

Maybe it's unfair that you aren't required to maintain a certain weight in accordance with your height for 20+ years...and you don't have to worry that you'll be booted from your job should your weight stray from those boundaries.

Maybe my wife think it's unfair that a civilian wife can pursue a career if she so desires, because military wives don't have it that easy. It's difficult to have a career as a military wife when employers aren't so interested in hiring a woman that will only work for them for a couple years and leave.

Maybe my wife thinks it's unfair that while she has to act as a single mom for more months than not, your wife knows she has you to help her at all times.

Maybe my son will think it's unfair that Daddy has to miss his first baseball game, his first steps, his first day of school, or any other major event in his life because his country needs him elsewhere.

Indeed I chose this job and this lifestyle, and again I don't complain a bit. But when I hear a civilian cry "unfair" about the way the military is compensated, you'll forgive me if the term "whiner" doesn't enter into my mind.


Not just the military....Important to note. Stop pigeonholing me if you want me to forgive you.

[Jiddy78]

Under the government we currently have, the private sector will always do well, at the expense of the private sector, of course.

I don't agree with this....nor really understand it that much. Please expand if possible.

[Jiddy78]

"Don't hate the playa, hate the game."

Hating everything is always an option.