European Press Reaction to Shooting

[ryr8828]

They naturally blame it on the gun.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,477686,00.html

Blaming Charlton Heston

With a view to Monday's deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, European newspapers are blaming the lack of gun control measures in the United States and implying that Charlton Heston is indirectly responsible for the scope of the killings.


http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,848376,00.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,grossbild-848375-477686,00.html) http://www.spiegel.de/static/sys/v8/icons/ic_lupe.gif (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,grossbild-848375-477686,00.html)
AP
In America, "buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license."


Across the continent on Tuesday, European media rubber-neck at Monday's massacre in the United States. Most seem to agree about one thing: The shooting at Virginia Tech is the result of America's woeful lack of serious gun control laws. In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead. Papers reserve their sharpest criticism for the 2004 expiration of a 10-year ban on semi-automatic weapons under the then Republican-controlled Congress. Others comment on the pro-gun lobbying activities of Heston's NRA. Some papers also draw analogies between school shootings and Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers.
British daily The Independent writes:
"The passionate feelings of the gun lobby may be traced to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution, enshrining 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms'. Although the provision stems from the times when 'well regulated militias' were deemed necessary to protect against a British attempt to regain the lost colonies, it is the default position of any argument against greater gun control here."
"As such, it has trumped every other consideration, not least the fact that on any given day about 80 people are killed by firearms, the vast majority by murder or suicide. Gun violence may cost $2.3 billion each year in medical expenses, but it is a price, gun supporters believe, that is worth paying to protect a fundamental freedom ..."
"There is no sign of attitudes hardening. Despite the opposition of every police force in the land, Congress in 2004 allowed to lapse a 10-year federal ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, a particular favorite of violent criminals. The reaction was not exactly deafening. Even amid yesterday's shock, the initial calls were for stricter security measures on campuses -- not serious moves to reduce gun ownership."
The Times of London writes:
"The trauma of the death of the students at Virginia Tech that will spread across the university and the whole country will be magnified by the feelings of so many people who feel that they should have been able to prevent it."
"Doubtless there will be a call to review the availability of firearms. The National Rifle Association's (NRA) response is predictable too. They will point out that events such as this are not carried out by a rifle-wielding member of a weekend militia. There is no doubt that access to rapid-action shotguns makes these events even more destructive but as we have seen with suicide bombers, who are closer to spree killers than is often realized, if a person really wants to take their own life and kill others in doing so it is exceptionally difficult to prevent it."
French daily Le Monde writes:
"The shooting at Virginia Tech ... is a dramatic episode of school violence that fits into a long series of such episodes, a series topped by the drama at Columbine, the school attacked by two adolescents in 1999 ..."
"If Columbine left such a strong impression, that was because it was one of the first dramas of school violence that received broad coverage in the media. Americans were informed of what was happening in real time, via TV and the radio. The students called their families or CNN even as the killers were still roaming the corridors of the schools. ..."
"This new tragedy presents a new opportunity for American public opinion to interrogate itself about a society which, as one of the students who survived Columbine said at the time, is very much responsible for what has happened."
French conservative daily Le Figaro writes:
"It was all too easy easy for the elected representatives of the United States, from the White House to the Congress, to express their sadness yesterday; America's problem with fire-arms represents a political issue for which they share responsibility. Here is a country that represents the vanguard of development and democracy while it is legal to carry a gun in 45 of 50 states, as long as the gun is not loaded. ... At the end of 2004, the Republican-controlled Congress allowed a law to expire that prohibited the sale of semi-automatic and military weapons. Thereafter, legal changes were made to protect the producers and vendors of fire-arms from being held responsible for the actions of gun owners."
"Contrary to what one would imagine, this backward stance is not something left over from the Wild West. It goes back to the creation of the United States and the War of Independence against the English. ... While most states have issued laws designed to control the sale of arms, the NRA ensures they remain inefficient or are not applied. Strongly linked to the conservative fringe of the Republican Party, the NRA spent $400,000 a day to prevent the election of the Democratic candidate John Kerry during the 2004 presidential elections ..."
"Yesterday's massacre will surely revive the debate in the United States, but within the federal system, the question is ultimately settled by each individual state. Going back on the lapsing of the law issued by Washington could provide an opportunity for the Supreme Court to take a stance on the issue for the first time since 1939."
Italian daily Il Corriere della Sera writes:
"Shocked psychologists and sociologists ask themselves how gun violence is to be explained. Some speak of the repressed violence of a country that goes back to generations of pioneers habituated to achieve justice on their own and which is forced to face the powerful tensions within a multiracial society. Others criticize the spread of violent video games (which are, however, a phenomenon that has only emerged in recent years). In any case, gun violence is becoming a common phenomenon in the United States, one that is no longer surprising. In major cities such as New York, the extension of surveillance measures, a tough approach to crime and measures to rebuild the urban fabric have led to a drop in crime and especially in the number of homicides. But in suburban areas and smaller cities, episodes of 'ordinary violence' are on the rise. In the poorest neighborhoods, people are getting used to the use of fire-arms -- a phenomenon that is linked to the growing tendency among many young people to resort to violence to settle even minor disputes and to the ease with which weapons can be acquired."
Italian daily Il Messaggero writes:
"The bloodbath on the university campus is the work of a suicide killer -- an American suicide killer who, differently from Muslim killers, did not act out of religious motives but was driven instead by the unrest affecting broad layers of US society. America is a nation that has for some years been in danger of becoming more and more unloved in the world, especially in the poorest countries. During the period following World War II, America was seen as the guardian of democracy and was equated with the defense of liberty; today, America is a superpower that begins wars and lives with the constant necessity of having to defend itself against the enemy -- whether this enemy be called Islam or whether it bears the face of the neighbor who has done you wrong."
Spanish daily El Pais writes:
"The president of Virginia Tech called it a tragedy of monumental proportions. But similar comments could already be heard following previous tragedies of this kind. The shooting spree at the Columbine high school in Colorado, for instance, revived the debate on the necessity of better controlling access to weapons. This led to some laws being toughened and security at schools being improved. But the measures are decided by the individual states and are constantly side-stepped by means of an exaggerated interpretation of the US constitution."
German daily Bild writes:
"Now we will probably begin discussing the overly lax gun laws in the United States. There, buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license. And a new ban on violent games and killer videos will also be put back on the agenda. But in the end, nothing is likely to happen. And the next killer already lives somewhere among us. But we have little reason to point an accusing finger at the Americans. Despite strict gun legislation, we (in Germany) have experienced the school shootings in Erfurt and Emsdetten. We have to consider the problems in our society. And we have to take care of our fellow humans."
-- Max Henninger, 12:30 p.m. CET

[i_hate_righties]

It does seem to be a U.S. phenomena...outside terrorists blowing up everyone in the middle east, I dont think any other country has the ammount of school shootings like we do!

[LSU]

It does seem to be a U.S. phenomena...outside terrorists blowing up everyone in the middle east, I dont think any other country has the ammount of school shootings like we do!




Are the gun laws in other countries more strict than they are here?

[ryr8828]

They mention shootings in Germany in the article.

Hell yes the gun laws are stricter in other countries, but it's no deterrent on their crime level last time I looked it up.

Some want to take away rights. I say if one criminal justice student had been sitting there with a sidearm, it's possible most of this doesn't happen. If this lunatic knew that 1/3 of the class might be armed, it's damn possible this doesn't happen. Not because of reason but because of fear. He filed the serial numbers off of those guns because he planned to get away with it. Then when the cops got there as quick as they did, he took the coward's way out.

It will only be a few days until the gun haters pile on. I've been wanting a Glock 21 .45 with a high capacity mag for a long time, I think I'd better buy it in the next month. I'm also going to join the NRA. With all the firearms I own, and I've owned some of them for 35 years, I never joined the NRA. I let other people do my lobbying for me on the gun issue. I should feel bad about that, and I do.

[LSU]

They mention shootings in Germany in the article.

Hell yes the gun laws are stricter in other countries, but it's no deterrent on their crime level last time I looked it up.

Some want to take away rights. I say if one criminal justice student had been sitting there with a sidearm, it's possible most of this doesn't happen. If this lunatic knew that 1/3 of the class might be armed, it's damn possible this doesn't happen. Not because of reason but because of fear. He filed the serial numbers off of those guns because he planned to get away with it. Then when the cops got there as quick as they did, he took the coward's way out.



It's also possible that in the confusion when police arrive, they shoot the wrong person if 1/3 of them have guns.

Considering the number of times this hasn't happened, I don't think gun laws on campuses should change.

An isolated event shouldn't be something that changes the way things are done...pro-gun or anti-gun.

[ryr8828]

It's also possible that in the confusion when police arrive, they shoot the wrong person if 1/3 of them have guns.

Considering the number of times this hasn't happened, I don't think gun laws on campuses should change.

An isolated event shouldn't be something that changes the way things are done...pro-gun or anti-gun.

I have no idea what gun laws on campus are. I don't advocate that every college student be allowed to carry a sidearm.

All of the people killed weren't young students, although the liberal bend of most universities would indicate that faculty probably would have a distaste for firearms and prefer to let the police defend them. Most of the police I've met weren't smart enough to pour piss out of a boot, I prefer to defend myself.
Still though, One state cop, or sheriff's deputy taking a class and carrying his sidearm when this started,
could have ended it very quickly.

[LSU]

I have no idea what gun laws on campus are. I don't advocate that every college student be allowed to carry a sidearm.

All of the people killed weren't young students, although the liberal bend of most universities would indicate that faculty probably would have a distaste for firearms and prefer to let the police defend them. Most of the police I've met weren't smart enough to pour piss out of a boot, I prefer to defend myself.
Still though, One state cop, or sheriff's deputy taking a class and carrying his sidearm when this started,
could have ended it very quickly.



BB and pellet guns aren't allowed on campus here (at least in the dorms, I'm sure the classroom operates under the same standards). I think most faculty, regardless of liberal or conservative, don't think about kids walking in blasting most days of the week.

And how many state cops or deputies are taking classes at a college during the day? Enough to pose a security presence? Probably not. Even ROTC and law enforcement majors...at a campus as large as VT, there are classes everyday that probably have upwards of 200-300 students. One shot gets fired and mayhem ensues...there's not an orderly way of defending that...

Point is, the odds on a college campus will always be in favor of the nutjob.

[ryr8828]

BB and pellet guns aren't allowed on campus here (at least in the dorms, I'm sure the classroom operates under the same standards). I think most faculty, regardless of liberal or conservative, don't think about kids walking in blasting most days of the week.

And how many state cops or deputies are taking classes at a college during the day? Enough to pose a security presence? Probably not. Even ROTC and law enforcement majors...at a campus as large as VT, there are classes everyday that probably have upwards of 200-300 students. One shot gets fired and mayhem ensues...there's not an orderly way of defending that...

Point is, the odds on a college campus will always be in favor of the nutjob.

I believe my point to still be valid.

[LSU]

I believe my point to still be valid.



I've spent enough hours in a campus classroom to be comfortable with my point as well.

[ryr8828]

I've spent enough hours in a campus classroom to be comfortable with my point as well.

Mine were spent in a kinder, gentler time. Stairway to Heaven T shirts abounded.
This situation was sort of unique, hopefully not a sign of things to come. My main point is an armed citizenry is a deterrent to this type of behavior, not an enabler.

[LSU]

Mine were spent in a kinder, gentler time. Stairway to Heaven T shirts abounded.
This situation was sort of unique, hopefully not a sign of things to come. My main point is an armed citizenry is a deterrent to this type of behavior, not an enabler.



I don't think it's either. A person, if so wanting, will find a way to hurt others. And, more guns out there means more ammunition in the event that "he" gets the better of the others.

Even the sanest have moments of duress. I don't think more guns is the answer. I'm all for home protection and property protection and such...but guns in schools, classrooms, dorms, wal-mart, etc...that makes me feel less safe.

[ryr8828]

I don't think it's either. A person, if so wanting, will find a way to hurt others. And, more guns out there means more ammunition in the event that "he" gets the better of the others.

Even the sanest have moments of duress. I don't think more guns is the answer. I'm all for home protection and property protection and such...but guns in schools, classrooms, dorms, wal-mart, etc...that makes me feel less safe.

A side note, which doesn't support my point:

Missouri has concealed carry. I spend almost every day in Missouri at work. Every building I walk in seems to have a sign, No Firearms Allowed.

Even jobsite trailers.

[LSU]

A side note, which doesn't support my point:

Missouri has concealed carry. I spend almost every day in Missouri at work. Every building I walk in seems to have a sign, No Firearms Allowed.

Even jobsite trailers.



I think if allowed, most americans still wouldn't carry. But there would be some. And among that some would the responsible people just protecting themselves, the macho guys waiting to wave it at someone, but not with the balls to fire, then the guys that will fire at the simplest unintentional dirty look.

Or not.

[ryr8828]

I think if allowed, most americans still wouldn't carry. But there would be some. And among that some would the responsible people just protecting themselves, the macho guys waiting to wave it at someone, but not with the balls to fire, then the guys that will fire at the simplest unintentional dirty look.

Or not.

I fully support the strictest regulations for carrying a firearm. Nutjobs not allowed. Criminals not allowed. Training and competency testing mandatory.

[LSU]

I fully support the strictest regulations for carrying a firearm. Nutjobs not allowed. Criminals not allowed. Training and competency testing mandatory.



That doesn't prevent a person from losing a screw after training.

And, in regards to the age old question, who's going to pay for the teachers and the examinations and the enforcement? Sounds like a lot of government.

[ryr8828]

That doesn't prevent a person from losing a screw after training.

And, in regards to the age old question, who's going to pay for the teachers and the examinations and the enforcement? Sounds like a lot of government.

A pilot could lose a screw after training and fly a jet into a football game if he didn't get shot down by the Air Force first.

Departments of Conservation offer firearm classes in every state I'd bet. They even do it in the socialist/communist/Chicago run dictatorship of Illinois.

Less crime means less immature cops needing to prove how long their dicks are, and more money to train. Or just hire qualified people to do both, giving a cop a break from the rigors and stress of active duty.

[LSU]

A pilot could lose a screw after training and fly a jet into a football game if he didn't get shot down by the Air Force first.

Departments of Conservation offer firearm classes in every state I'd bet. They even do it in the socialist/communist/Chicago run dictatorship of Illinois.

Less crime means less immature cops needing to prove how long their dicks are, and more money to train. Or just hire qualified people to do both, giving a cop a break from the rigors and stress of active duty.


For the pilot, how fast would the fighters need to be mobilized and how fast could they get there? Any air bases near all major sports stadiums? How soon would you need to know he had a screw loose in order to intercept?


I know about hunter safety classes and such, but in order to teach safety for carrying seems to be a bit more of a lesson, at least I would hope so...


As for you last example, wouldn't you risk then putting the guns in the hands of guys with even more of a desire to prove how long their dicks are?? The police at least have an extensive training program (not saying it's perfect, but I would imagine much better than a public gun safety program).

[ryr8828]

For the pilot, how fast would the fighters need to be mobilized and how fast could they get there? Any air bases near all major sports stadiums? How soon would you need to know he had a screw loose in order to intercept?


I know about hunter safety classes and such, but in order to teach safety for carrying seems to be a bit more of a lesson, at least I would hope so...


As for you last example, wouldn't you risk then putting the guns in the hands of guys with even more of a desire to prove how long their dicks are?? The police at least have an extensive training program (not saying it's perfect, but I would imagine much better than a public gun safety program).

I feel no need to prove length. It is what is has always been.

You use what you're born with.

There are dangers in every possible scenario. You can seek them out, or decide which scenario you like best.

I like the scenario where I am allowed to have protection and don't have to depend on the class geek from high school to defend me.

[LSU]

I feel no need to prove length. It is what is has always been.

You use what you're born with.

There are dangers in every possible scenario. You can seek them out, or decide which scenario you like best.

I like the scenario where I am allowed to have protection and don't have to depend on the class geek from high school to defend me.



And for the most part, I'm not worried about you. I'm worried about the geek that didn't pass the entrance exam into the academy and was a bit unqualified to enlist. But still LOVES guns.

[ryr8828]

And for the most part, I'm not worried about you. I'm worried about the geek that didn't pass the entrance exam into the academy and was a bit unqualified to enlist. But still LOVES guns.

You have a valid point. I don't have an answer for everything.

If his disqualification was due to something other than being a lardass, it might be held against him in a concealed carry permit scenario also.

[LSU]

You have a valid point. I don't have an answer for everything.

If his disqualification was due to something other than being a lardass, it might be held against him in a concealed carry permit scenario also.



Unless they're going to do a full psych analysis, how are the going to pick up some underlying things? If you want a gun bad enough, you can act normal.

[Vegas]

Unless they're going to do a full psych analysis, how are the going to pick up some underlying things? If you want a gun bad enough, you can act normal.

Psychology is hardly an exact science.

[ryr8828]

Unless they're going to do a full psych analysis, how are the going to pick up some underlying things? If you want a gun bad enough, you can act normal.

They don't do a full psych analysis for most police positions.

If you want a gun bad enough, you can go to your local lowbrow tavern and buy one.
That's my whole point about gun control. Any worthless son of a bitch that wants a gun has one. I want law abiding citizens to be able to have them without having to break the law.

[LSU]

Psychology is hardly an exact science.



How else are you going to evaluate whether a person can or cannot carry?

[ryr8828]

How else are you going to evaluate whether a person can or cannot carry?

I'll evaluate them.

For starters, vegas and I get to carry.

[Vegas]

How else are you going to evaluate whether a person can or cannot carry?

Most states have a required course and some kind of practical exam. That takes care of those who legally carry. There's nothing anyone can do about those who carry illegally.

[ryr8828]

How else are you going to evaluate whether a person can or cannot carry?

Background
Criminal record
Competence in handling the weapon
Attitude while handling the weapon

For a start.

[LSU]

They don't do a full psych analysis for most police positions.

If you want a gun bad enough, you can go to your local lowbrow tavern and buy one.
That's my whole point about gun control. Any worthless son of a bitch that wants a gun has one. I want law abiding citizens to be able to have them without having to break the law.



Well, right now they can have them. Maybe not specifically on their person, but they can have them.

I agree gun control right now doesn't control illegal guns. But no gun control won't control them either, and I don't think fear of a person carrying is going to stop people from committing a crime, unless people walk down the street locked and loaded in hand. Crime, for the most part, doesn't occur in areas where there a bunch of people to see and come to your rescue, so if a douche catches you offguard, he now has your money and your gun.

[LSU]

Most states have a required course and some kind of practical exam. That takes care of those who legally carry. There's nothing anyone can do about those who carry illegally.



So, do you think this kid at VT could've still gotten a gun?

[LSU]

Background
Criminal record
Competence in handling the weapon
Attitude while handling the weapon

For a start.


See my response to Vegas.

[Vegas]

So, do you think this kid at VT could've still gotten a gun?

Without question.

[ryr8828]

So, do you think this kid at VT could've still gotten a gun?

Not under my criteria. Apparently under Virginia's criteria he could.

That's legally.

Illegally, of course he could.

Mucho flags were thrown up about this kid, maybe things should have been pursued. They weren't. The authorities don't know unless you tell them.

[LSU]

Without question.



OK, well I've been posting in regards to keeping the guns out of the "nutjob's" hands, are you guys talking about something else? I know before ryr and I were talking about having more people carrying in classrooms (which I still think is a bad idea whether or not they're "allowed" to, law enforcement aside).

[ryr8828]

OK, well I've been posting in regards to keeping the guns out of the "nutjob's" hands, are you guys talking about something else? I know before ryr and I were talking about having more people carrying in classrooms (which I still think is a bad idea whether or not they're "allowed" to, law enforcement aside).

See my post.

[LSU]

Not under my criteria. Apparently under Virginia's criteria he could.

That's legally.

Illegally, of course he could.

Mucho flags were thrown up about this kid, maybe things should have been pursued. They weren't. The authorities don't know unless you tell them.


Well yes, flags are easily visible now that we know he's gone on a rampage and shot a bunch of people...but what flags would arise under your criteria before he did this, and how would one go about finding out about said "flags"?


edit: his demeanor was described as calm while shooting...so how would that raise any flags while handling, assuming he had no criminal background?

[Vegas]

OK, well I've been posting in regards to keeping the guns out of the "nutjob's" hands, are you guys talking about something else? I know before ryr and I were talking about having more people carrying in classrooms (which I still think is a bad idea whether or not they're "allowed" to, law enforcement aside).

Anyone who wants to buy a gun can get one. Guns are illegal in Mexico. I could go to Baja today and have a gun by tomorrow.

And as far as banning guns in classrooms, you're letting the bad guys know that's an easy place to kill a lot of people if that's your goal. What could be easier than going to an area where you know everyone is unarmed?

[LSU]

Anyone who wants to buy a gun can get one. Guns are illegal in Mexico. I could go to Baja today and have a gun by tomorrow.

And as far as banning guns in classrooms, you're letting the bad guys know that's an easy place to kill a lot of people if that's your goal. What could be easier than going to an area where you know everyone is unarmed?



Isn't any area of concentrated people fulfilling that criteria? Unless a majority of people are armed, a majority of people will be unarmed. And go back and read what we talked about in terms of police shooting the wrong person on the scene and general "vigilante" justice type stuff, and screws becoming loose.

[Vegas]

Isn't any area of concentrated people fulfilling that criteria? Unless a majority of people are armed, a majority of people will be unarmed. And go back and read what we talked about in terms of police shooting the wrong person on the scene and general "vigilante" justice type stuff, and screws becoming loose.

I already read through the whole thread.

[ryr8828]

Well yes, flags are easily visible now that we know he's gone on a rampage and shot a bunch of people...but what flags would arise under your criteria before he did this, and how would one go about finding out about said "flags"?


edit: his demeanor was described as calm while shooting...so how would that raise any flags while handling, assuming he had no criminal background?

His ridiculous writings and demeanor were reported to the school administration. That's a flag if I ever heard of one.

[LSU]

I already read through the whole thread.



My mistake.

[ryr8828]

Isn't any area of concentrated people fulfilling that criteria? Unless a majority of people are armed, a majority of people will be unarmed. And go back and read what we talked about in terms of police shooting the wrong person on the scene and general "vigilante" justice type stuff, and screws becoming loose.

A majority of people will never be armed unfortunately, and it only takes one or two level headed people who are to prevent a catastrophe.

[LSU]

His ridiculous writings and demeanor were reported to the school administration. That's a flag if I ever heard of one.



So, the people that issue the gun and/or the right to carry are going to obtain that information? And that information is somewhere on file at the university if it's requested?

[Vegas]

So, the people that issue the gun and/or the right to carry are going to obtain that information? And that information is somewhere on file at the university if it's requested?

I don't think that part matters in the least. If he had been denied a handgun purchase, he would have found another way to buy. He bought the gun weeks ago legally. He had plenty of time to plan.

[LSU]

A majority of people will never be armed unfortunately, and it only takes one or two level headed people who are to prevent a catastrophe.



In what situation? In a movie theater? A classroom with 200 people scattering all over the place? How are you going to stop that unless you catch him from behind?

Now, in some cases, a person might be in the exact right place in the exact right time, but in the majority of "crowded" situations, the people aren't just going to calmly remove themselves from the line of fire between the level-headed person and the nutcase.

[LSU]

I don't think that part matters in the least. If he had been denied a handgun purchase, he would have found another way to buy. He bought the gun weeks ago legally. He had plenty of time to plan.



But that's not what ryr and I are talking about. We've already established there is a black market for guns. I must be somewhat out of the loop though, because I don't know where I can just walk up and buy an illegal weapon.

What we're talking about is how do you keep the guns out of the psycho's hands in the event that there's a right to carry or whatever put into place.

[ryr8828]

So, the people that issue the gun and/or the right to carry are going to obtain that information? And that information is somewhere on file at the university if it's requested?

I believe that information should have been submitted to the police.

My belief is that academics think they're so all encompassing and so damn smart that they don't think they need anyone else to deal with a problem like this, or they're so used to being around total nuts that they gloss over it.
Then we get what we have today.

Of course when something goes wrong, they expect immediate response from the government.

[Vegas]

But that's not what ryr and I are talking about. We've already established there is a black market for guns. I must be somewhat out of the loop though, because I don't know where I can just walk up and buy an illegal weapon.

What we're talking about is how do you keep the guns out of the psycho's hands in the event that there's a right to carry or whatever put into place.

My point is that I think that question is moot. You can't keep people like that from getting guns.

[LSU]

I believe that information should have been submitted to the police.

My belief is that academics think they're so all encompassing and so damn smart that they don't think they need anyone else to deal with a problem like this, or they're so used to being around total nuts that they gloss over it.
Then we get what we have today.

Of course when something goes wrong, they expect immediate response from the government.



Maybe, maybe not. There are quite a few people that make a lot of money making some messed up shit into movies...there's a whole bunch of horror movies based on some weird mentalities.

As for your opinion on academics, it's apparent you don't have a high opinion of them. I'll not delve into my disagreements with that because I may take it too far.

I hope you're not blaming what happened today on "academics".

[ryr8828]

In what situation? In a movie theater? A classroom with 200 people scattering all over the place? How are you going to stop that unless you catch him from behind?

Now, in some cases, a person might be in the exact right place in the exact right time, but in the majority of "crowded" situations, the people aren't just going to calmly remove themselves from the line of fire between the level-headed person and the nutcase.

It's odds.

I want to increase mine. There is no perfect defense scenario. I'm just saying that if criminals know they aren't the only ones who have a gun, they are less likely to be criminal with their gun. Right now if a criminal doesn't see a badge, in most areas he can be assured that he has the only weapon.
Wait, that may not be true, I keep forgetting I'm one of the unlucky ones who lives in the bankrupt State of Opression, IL.

[Vegas]

I believe that information should have been submitted to the police.



I believe that in every place that I've lived the police would have had little to no interest in that information because they're too busy with what they already have to do.

[LSU]

My point is that I think that question is moot. You can't keep people like that from getting guns.



OK.

[LSU]

It's odds.

I want to increase mine. There is no perfect defense scenario. I'm just saying that if criminals know they aren't the only ones who have a gun, they are less likely to be criminal with their gun. Right now if a criminal doesn't see a badge, in most areas he can be assured that he has the only weapon.
Wait, that may not be true, I keep forgetting I'm one of the unlucky ones who lives in the bankrupt State of Opression, IL.


If their plan is to die anyway (as in the case that has prompted this discussion), what's going to stop them from going in even knowing someone could take them out?

[Jiddy78]

They mention shootings in Germany in the article.

Hell yes the gun laws are stricter in other countries, but it's no deterrent on their crime level last time I looked it up.

Some want to take away rights. I say if one criminal justice student had been sitting there with a sidearm, it's possible most of this doesn't happen. If this lunatic knew that 1/3 of the class might be armed, it's damn possible this doesn't happen. Not because of reason but because of fear. He filed the serial numbers off of those guns because he planned to get away with it. Then when the cops got there as quick as they did, he took the coward's way out.

It will only be a few days until the gun haters pile on. I've been wanting a Glock 21 .45 with a high capacity mag for a long time, I think I'd better buy it in the next month. I'm also going to join the NRA. With all the firearms I own, and I've owned some of them for 35 years, I never joined the NRA. I let other people do my lobbying for me on the gun issue. I should feel bad about that, and I do.



Blood in the streets baby. Load up if you can. I'll be taking the fall early as I won't be packin'...but I can't fault you for fighting all the way out the door.


Just another 50 or so years...*crosses fingers*

[ryr8828]

Maybe, maybe not. There are quite a few people that make a lot of money making some messed up shit into movies...there's a whole bunch of horror movies based on some weird mentalities.

As for your opinion on academics, it's apparent you don't have a high opinion of them. I'll not delve into my disagreements with that because I may take it too far.

I hope you're not blaming what happened today on "academics".

I blame what happened today on a nutjob first of all.

I think his crazy writings that were reported to the administration should have been passed on to the police. I would have said this last week.

I have no love for academics because they push the liberal agenda to our children while we pay their damn salary.

[ryr8828]

If their plan is to die anyway (as in the case that has prompted this discussion), what's going to stop them from going in even knowing someone could take them out?

I posted earlier on that he didn't plan to die. If he did, he wouldn't have bothered to take the time to file the serial numbers off of both of the guns.

He chose to die when he realized he was surrounded, and shot himself rather than stand trial.

[Jiddy78]

I blame what happened today on a nutjob first of all.

I think his crazy writings that were reported to the administration should have been passed on to the police. I would have said this last week.

I have no love for academics because they push the liberal agenda to our children while we pay their damn salary.

I went to a private catholic university for my undergrad...and I assure you I was beaten senseless by a non-liberal agenda as bad as I was by the liberal one when I followed it up in a 5th year at a public university.

[LSU]

I blame what happened today on a nutjob first of all.

I think his crazy writings that were reported to the administration should have been passed on to the police. I would have said this last week.

I have no love for academics because they push the liberal agenda to our children while we pay their damn salary.



This (bold) will have to be a discussion for another day or at least another thread.


As for the writings being reported, who were they reported to? I didn't read much about the details of this...I'm sure a professor reported them (isn't that an academic trying to do something about it?), but was it to the dept chair, a provost, the dean of students, the campus police, or someone else?

[ryr8828]

Blood in the streets baby. Load up if you can. I'll be taking the fall early as I won't be packin'...but I can't fault you for fighting all the way out the door.


Just another 50 or so years...*crosses fingers*

I'd have your back if I had a lakehouse down on the Gulf.

You need me.

[Jiddy78]

I went to a private catholic university for my undergrad...and I assure you I was beaten senseless by a non-liberal agenda as bad as I was by the liberal one when I followed it up in a 5th year at a public university.


Oh BTW...I paid a whole lot more for educator salary through my private tuition than you ever will AND am matching you to boot on the tax side old man.

*plays fiddle*

Mmmmm...Delicious whining.

[LSU]

I posted earlier on that he didn't plan to die. If he did, he wouldn't have bothered to take the time to file the serial numbers off of both of the guns.

He chose to die when he realized he was surrounded, and shot himself rather than stand trial.



Unless he planned on using the guns for other means...it's hard to say for sure what his plans were. Seeing that he chained himself inside a building, it may be safe to assume he didn't think he was leaving.

Now, maybe after the initial 2 killings, he just planned on dumping the guns. That's possible. But after the rest, I think he knew what was coming, and what he was prepared to do.

[Jiddy78]

I'd have your back if I had a lakehouse down on the Gulf.

You need me.


If you be my bodyguard, I can be your long lost bulletshield...

I can call you ryrie...and ryrie if you call me you can call me waallllll....call me waaaallllll...

[ryr8828]

This (bold) will have to be a discussion for another day or at least another thread.


As for the writings being reported, who were they reported to? I didn't read much about the details of this...I'm sure a professor reported them (isn't that an academic trying to do something about it?), but was it to the dept chair, a provost, the dean of students, the campus police, or someone else?

Administration is all I remember reading.

That's where all the heat is going to go and I expect some firings or resignations will come of it.

As far as campus police go, at SIU when I went there they were considered a joke. I believe they're still considered a joke. I've seen them all the way out on Route 13 trying to give speeding tickets and dui's, a mile from the college property.
Back to that long dick thing again. Maybe every college isn't that way.

[Jiddy78]

Administration is all I remember reading.

That's where all the heat is going to go and I expect some firings or resignations will come of it.

As far as campus police go, at SIU when I went there they were considered a joke. I believe they're still considered a joke. I've seen them all the way out on Route 13 trying to give speeding tickets and dui's, a mile from the college property.
Back to that long dick thing again. Maybe every college isn't that way.

My wife informed me earlier today that VT police is the equivalent. Sleep well with your verified generalization.

[ryr8828]

Unless he planned on using the guns for other means...it's hard to say for sure what his plans were. Seeing that he chained himself inside a building, it may be safe to assume he didn't think he was leaving.

Now, maybe after the initial 2 killings, he just planned on dumping the guns. That's possible. But after the rest, I think he knew what was coming, and what he was prepared to do.

Possibility.

I think we should explore his listening preferences and video game library.

[LSU]

Administration is all I remember reading.

That's where all the heat is going to go and I expect some firings or resignations will come of it.

As far as campus police go, at SIU when I went there they were considered a joke. I believe they're still considered a joke. I've seen them all the way out on Route 13 trying to give speeding tickets and dui's, a mile from the college property.
Back to that long dick thing again. Maybe every college isn't that way.


I posted earlier on s-b my U's campus "police". At UW-SP, it was basically security guards with flashlights. The local PD was called in for anything.

At Iowa State, there was campus security, but they didn't carry firearms...if anything, pepper spray.

here at LSU, they have their own force, and they're pretty much the same as local PD as far as I can tell, and they've got sidearms.


As for the administration, that's quite vague. I say that because it could've been reported to a secretary, or it could've been someone higher. If it were our university, perhaps our liberal asshole Chancellor would have to retire. But then we'd get no more benefits of his buddies Cheney and Bush giving our commencement speeches. Wait, did I call him a liberal?

[LSU]

Possibility.

I think we should explore his listening preferences and video game library.




I listen to punk rock, play grand theft auto, and probably do a few other things you may consider dangerous to the public.

[ryr8828]

I posted earlier on s-b my U's campus "police". At UW-SP, it was basically security guards with flashlights. The local PD was called in for anything.

At Iowa State, there was campus security, but they didn't carry firearms...if anything, pepper spray.

here at LSU, they have their own force, and they're pretty much the same as local PD as far as I can tell, and they've got sidearms.


As for the administration, that's quite vague. I say that because it could've been reported to a secretary, or it could've been someone higher. If it were our university, perhaps our liberal asshole Chancellor would have to retire. But then we'd get no more benefits of his buddies Cheney and Bush giving our commencement speeches. Wait, did I call him a liberal?

So I take it that you're disagreeing about most academics being liberal and teaching a liberal agenda.

We can split this thread later. I may leave without notice since I have to leave at 4:30 in the morning.
I'll probably wait until the first tough question.

Or not.

[Vegas]

I listen to punk rock, play grand theft auto, and probably do a few other things you may consider dangerous to the public.

Reported

[ryr8828]

I listen to punk rock, play grand theft auto, and probably do a few other things you may consider dangerous to the public.

I do none of those, but I own 4 handguns and 4 long guns.

Who is the greater threat?

[ryr8828]

I do none of those, but I own 4 handguns and 4 long guns.

Who is the greater threat?

In this totally hypothetical world I say LSU is, because I posted it first.

[LSU]

So I take it that you're disagreeing about most academics being liberal and teaching a liberal agenda.

We can split this thread later. I may leave without notice since I have to leave at 4:30 in the morning.
I'll probably wait until the first tough question.

Or not.


I don't know the breakdown of liberal versus non-liberal viewpoints. But I do know that in my 12 years of college classes, I can count on one hand the ones I've had where I could tell a political bias being taught. One was political science, and another was environmental ethics (you know a conservative couldn't teach that class). Other than that, nothing sticks out as having a "liberal" slant.

But what I can tell you is that I have political arguments with my boss, who doesn't believe global warming completely, there's a prof down the hall that has a picture of george and laura outside his office thanking him for campaign contributions, our chancellor is buddy buddy with the current admin (he's the former NASA chief, and a former big wig (wife worked in our lab) at the U was about as conservate (fiscally, not socially) as you could get.

[LSU]

I do none of those, but I own 4 handguns and 4 long guns.

Who is the greater threat?



I have a .22 and a 30-30 (but they're at my parents house). I have a Crosman 760 in my current residence.

If you're a cat, I'm a threat.

[Vegas]

there's a prof down the hall that has a picture of george and laura outside his office thanking him for campaign contributions,

I had one of those pictures, but I never gave George any campaign contributions. I think he was trying to thank me in advance for the money I refused to give him.

[ryr8828]

I don't know the breakdown of liberal versus non-liberal viewpoints. But I do know that in my 12 years of college classes, I can count on one hand the ones I've had where I could tell a political bias being taught. One was political science, and another was environmental ethics (you know a conservative couldn't teach that class). Other than that, nothing sticks out as having a "liberal" slant.

But what I can tell you is that I have political arguments with my boss, who doesn't believe global warming completely, there's a prof down the hall that has a picture of george and laura outside his office thanking him for campaign contributions, our chancellor is buddy buddy with the current admin (he's the former NASA chief, and a former big wig (wife worked in our lab) at the U was about as conservate (fiscally, not socially) as you could get.

You chose a good school.

[LSU]

I had one of those pictures, but I never gave George any campaign contributions. I think he was trying to thank me in advance for the money I refused to give him.



Perhaps. Did you hang the picture outside your office?

[LSU]

You chose a good school.



And don't you forget it.

[Vegas]

Perhaps. Did you hang the picture outside your office?

I gave the picture to a friend of mine who is a huge GBW fan. He hung it in his office.

[LSU]

I gave the picture to a friend of mine who is a huge GBW fan. He hung it in his office.



What a poser.

[ryr8828]

I had one of those pictures, but I never gave George any campaign contributions. I think he was trying to thank me in advance for the money I refused to give him.
I have a shitload of pictures, and also many years of Christmas cards. I treasure every one.

I've given nothing but my time. After I get done with the local and state candidates, there's no money left.

[Vegas]

What a poser.

He didn't even cover up where my name showed up in the thanks section.

[LSU]

So I guess we're in agreement that a person with a conservative viewpoint could never teach an "environmental ethics" class. Awesome.

[ryr8828]

I have a .22 and a 30-30 (but they're at my parents house). I have a Crosman 760 in my current residence.

If you're a cat, I'm a threat.

I ban cat haters.

[Vegas]

So I guess we're in agreement that a person with a conservative viewpoint could never teach an "environmental ethics" class. Awesome.

We are absolutely not in agreement on that point.

[Jiddy78]

So I guess we're in agreement that a person with a conservative viewpoint could never teach an "environmental ethics" class. Awesome.

You see this tree?

God says cut this f*cking tree down.

See you on tuesday for the exam...Bring your chainsaws.

[LSU]

I ban cat haters.



I have a cat residing in my home. It's the cat's that (legally) shouldn't be in my neighbor's home that come into my yard that get the sting of a lead projectile.

[ryr8828]

So I guess we're in agreement that a person with a conservative viewpoint could never teach an "environmental ethics" class. Awesome.

Ignoring something does not constitute agreement.

[LSU]

We are absolutely not in agreement on that point.




Figured as much.

[Jiddy78]

We are absolutely not in agreement on that point.


Always one guy that refuses to dissect the frog because of his "beliefs"....:rolleyes:

[ryr8828]

You see this tree?

God says cut this f*cking tree down.

See you on tuesday for the exam...Bring your chainsaws.

I challenge you to take every piece of wood out of your house.

[Vegas]

Ignoring something does not constitute agreement.

Indeed. I've been in many situations over the years when I was asked to participate in lying to customers or similar nonsense. I've been quite uncompromising in insisting that the right thing get done.

[ryr8828]

I have a cat residing in my home. It's the cat's that (legally) shouldn't be in my neighbor's home that come into my yard that get the sting of a lead projectile.

Forgiven.

Be gentle with the offending pussies.

[LSU]

Oh, and just to get to the "liberal" college campuses point again, my undergrad is known for it's natural resources program (wildlife, fisheries, soil science, water science, etc) and even in all that, I never felt I was getting leftist slant driven down my throat. Just because some yahoos think that 9/11 is a conspiracy and other left field thoughts doesn't mean a majority of professors can't keep things on an even keel.

[LSU]

Forgiven.

Be gentle with the offending pussies.



I didn't get the pointed pellets. Is that humane enough? It still pump 10 times whenever I have the chance, though. I can usually see the pellet bouncing off of them...or maybe that's a skull fragment.

I better be careful, my "sick" mind here may prevent me from buying a pistol down the road.

[Vegas]

I didn't get the pointed pellets. Is that humane enough? It still pump 10 times whenever I have the chance, though. I can usually see the pellet bouncing off of them...or maybe that's a skull fragment.

I better be careful, my "sick" mind here may prevent me from buying a pistol down the road.

I don't know why but this reminded me of a funny from my youth. I had a crazy bunch of friends and we came up with the idea of stuffing a bunch of socks together and putting it at the end of a fishing line. We'd run it across a street at night and reel it in when a car approached. It looked just like a cat running in front of the car.

We used to keep statistics. At around 9 pm or so, about 4x as many people would slam on the brakes or swerve to miss as tried to run it over. After midnight, it was about 10:1 who tried to run it over.

[Jiddy78]

I challenge you to take every piece of wood out of your house.

My house is concrete block for the most part...I'd probably lose the roof (concrete block flat tile) as the support is mainly wood...so that would be not fun.

Besides, you know as well as I know that no right-winger environmental ethics teacher would tell me that...A home is the key to life and wealth. That takes place over ethics. Duhhh...

[Vegas]

My house is concrete block for the most part...I'd probably lose the roof (concrete block flat tile) as the support is mainly wood...so that would be not fun.

Besides, you know as well as I know that no right-winger environmental ethics teacher would tell me that...A home is the key to life and wealth. That takes place over ethics. Duhhh...

One of the undeniable truths of Rush Limbaugh:

The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you make out of it after you cut it down.

[LSU]

I don't know why but this reminded me of a funny from my youth. I had a crazy bunch of friends and we came up with the idea of stuffing a bunch of socks together and putting it at the end of a fishing line. We'd run it across a street at night and reel it in when a car approached. It looked just like a cat running in front of the car.

We used to keep statistics. At around 9 pm or so, about 4x as many people would slam on the brakes or swerve to miss as tried to run it over. After midnight, it was about 10:1 who tried to run it over.


NO SHIT!

My friends used to do this with pound puppies, little stuffed animal dogs...they'd tie it to a fishing line and cast the dog over the highway, then reel it in when cars came by...

Until one night they didn't see the lights on top of their victim's car.

[Jiddy78]

Indeed. I've been in many situations over the years when I was asked to participate in lying to customers or similar nonsense. I've been quite uncompromising in insisting that the right thing get done.

This is how it should be....Unfortunately, now all the debt slaves run things...Gotta pay the bills.

HIT THE NUMBERS B*TCH or your baby will go hungry. :mad:

Be happy that you don't have to be put on the other end of this smoking gun. Our firm loses a lot of clientele because of this nonchalant "money isn't that important" attitude. Makes all the difference.

But......You don't get rich doing it. Womp womp womp woommmmmm....

[Vegas]

NO SHIT!

My friends used to do this with pound puppies, little stuffed animal dogs...they'd tie it to a fishing line and cast the dog over the highway, then reel it in when cars came by...

Until one night they didn't see the lights on top of their victim's car.

That's funny. For all of the times we did that, we should have had that happen but didn't.

[Jiddy78]

One of the undeniable truths of Rush Limbaugh:

The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you make out of it after you cut it down.

Undeniable???

Somebody cuts my orange trees out back and I'll f*ck them up royally. They better make a bow and f*cking arrow to defend themselves.

[LSU]

That's funny. For all of the times we did that, we should have had that happen but didn't.



I wasn't there, but the story goes that one of the older ones yelled "COPPER" and everyone went scrambling in every direction...and fast, too. I don't think any actually got caught, but they lost a damn fine rod and reel.

[LSU]

Undeniable???

Somebody cuts my orange trees out back and I'll f*ck them up royally. They better make a bow and f*cking arrow to defend themselves.



Careful, they might squirt orange juice on your paper cut.


MAN DOWN!

[Vegas]

Undeniable???

Somebody cuts my orange trees out back and I'll f*ck them up royally. They better make a bow and f*cking arrow to defend themselves.

there's very little to nothing you can make out of an orange tree. But if you think about it...furniture, picture frames, baseball bats, houses, there's no doubt that it's true.

[Jiddy78]

there's very little to nothing you can make out of an orange tree. But if you think about it...furniture, picture frames, baseball bats, houses, there's no doubt that it's true.


Well...'cept for oranges.

[Vegas]

Well...'cept for oranges.

Be glad you have those orange trees. We're getting really crappy and expensive oranges now after all of the freezing in California this past winter. I make fresh orange juice every day and I've never seen oranges this bad.

[Jiddy78]

Be glad you have those orange trees. We're getting really crappy and expensive oranges now after all of the freezing in California this past winter. I make fresh orange juice every day and I've never seen oranges this bad.


We've got one about 4 1/2 foot tall now...The winter was all goofy so it has like 100 of them about 2 inches around and still green...and it had one fully grown one 2 weeks ago that was damn the best orange I've ever eaten...I'm not sure if the rest will make it as this isn't the correct time of year...but based on that, I should have hundreds from that tree alone come fall and our other one produced about 20 good ones last year. (She's struggling still to recover from the canes)

There's a third one that's just a baby ('bout 3 feet tall) that should be spectacular in a couple years.

[Iron Jaw]

It does seem to be a U.S. phenomena...outside terrorists blowing up everyone in the middle east, I dont think any other country has the ammount of school shootings like we do!

There's a lot of violence in schools around the world. Currently, as well as historically. The U.S. is not alone.

http://www.columbine-angels.com/other_shootings.htm