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Vegas
04-14-2007, 11:50 PM
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=261357146315752

April 17: It will come as no surprise that the latest IBD/TIPP poll shows more people think they pay too much in taxes than too little. What's intriguing, though, is it's true even for those who pay little or nothing at all.

So what gives? Looking at the data below, you see that fully 58% of all those earning under $30,000 a year say they pay too much in taxes. Meanwhile, the same people are convinced that the "rich" — that is, those with more than $100,000 in household income — aren't paying their fair share.

We don't mean to pick on low-income people. But, as a group, they're younger and less educated than the population as a whole. They are therefore more susceptible to the class-warfare-based lies often promulgated in the media.

Somehow, the notion goes, the rich get tax breaks while the poor end up paying the taxes. That's where the Democratic mantra of "tax breaks for the rich" really gets its traction.

The problem with that, as we've noted in this spot many times, is that it's a total myth. Yet it persists.

When you look at what lower-income Americans actually pay in federal income taxes, it turns out to be a pittance. In fact, for many it's less than a pittance — it's zero.

Of the "rich," the top 5% of all earners now pay 57.1% of all federal income taxes. That's up from 36.8% in 1980. The top 1% pay 36.9%, up from just 19.1% in 1980. The really, really rich — those with more than $1 million in income, or about 181,000 people — pay 19% of all federal taxes.

Not only is the tax code "fair" — it's getting "fairer" all the time, particularly after recent tax cuts. Today, 45 million Americans pay no taxes at all, IRS data show.

The average family in America pays about $5,405 a year. But if you make less than $20,000, according to Congress' Joint Economic Committee, you not only don't pay any taxes on average, the government gives you money. The tax burden for those earners between $20,000 to $30,000 is also small — $520 on average.

Thus, it's surprising to see in our own national poll that 58% of those with less than $30,000 in income think they "pay too much" in taxes, while just 11% say they pay "too little." Especially since just 26% of the same income group say those earning $100,000 or more "pay too much."

The class resentment strikes us as strange, given that studies by the Treasury Department, the Urban Institute and others have shown that most of the people who are poor today will be in one of the higher income categories within a decade.

That is, the world isn't split into rich and poor, but rich and getting richer. What's more, asking who pays what in taxes misses a bigger point: Those with the lowest incomes get far more back from the government than they pay in taxes.

For example, 2002 figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Consumer Expenditure Survey show that those in the poorest 20% of our population earned just 7% as much as the richest 20%. An outrage? Hardly. Because the same data show that the bottom 20% consume more than 24% as much as the top 20%.

How can that be? A study last month by the nonpartisan Tax Foundation sheds some light. It found the lowest-earning one-fifth of all U.S. households received roughly $8.21 in government spending for each dollar of taxes paid. Middle-class families got $1.30 for each buck in taxes. And the return to the highest-earning households was just 41 cents per dollar — that is, they paid more than they got.

So the tax code's "progressiveness" means the average family in the bottom 20% — those with less than $23,700 in income — gets $23,178 in federal spending less federal taxes, almost as much as they earn. Meanwhile, those in the highest income range paid, on average, $38,939 more in total federal taxes than they received.

Fact is, most people have good reason to believe that they're taxed too highly. Another study by the Tax Foundation this month asked people the same question we did. They found 58% of American adults said the federal income tax they pay is too high.

Our tax code is many things. At 66,000 pages and counting, it's much too complex and has far too many exceptions and deductions. It also has too many rates and tends to punish entrepreneurs.

One thing it is not, however, is unfair — that is, unless you think it's unfair to make the most productive members of our society foot the bill for everyone else.
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pnkpanther
04-15-2007, 10:27 AM
Of the "rich," the top 5% of all earners now pay 57.1% of all federal income taxes. That's up from 36.8% in 1980. The top 1% pay 36.9%, up from just 19.1% in 1980. The really, really rich — those with more than $1 million in income, or about 181,000 people — pay 19% of all federal taxes.

and the top 5%'s salaries have grown at a MUCH faster rater then those at the bottom, the gap between rich and poor is growing. Wealth is being concentrated more and more in smaller sectors.

and top 5% control 59% of the wealth in the country, so...

Jiddy78
04-15-2007, 11:28 AM
Of the "rich," the top 5% of all earners now pay 57.1% of all federal income taxes. That's up from 36.8% in 1980. The top 1% pay 36.9%, up from just 19.1% in 1980. The really, really rich — those with more than $1 million in income, or about 181,000 people — pay 19% of all federal taxes.

and the top 5%'s salaries have grown at a MUCH faster rater then those at the bottom, the gap between rich and poor is growing. Wealth is being concentrated more and more in smaller sectors.

and top 5% control 59% of the wealth in the country, so...

Yes...but do they receive more "service" for their share?

ryr8828
04-15-2007, 11:34 AM
Yes...but do they receive more "service" for their share?

No, it's a simple redistribution of wealth mandated by government regulation. Robin Hood would be proud.

Jiddy78
04-15-2007, 11:39 AM
No, it's a simple redistribution of wealth mandated by government regulation. Robin Hood would be proud.

Now we just need a way to determine "fair share" then it'll be perfect.

Flat isn't "fair share"....

Current way isn't "fair share"...


Why wouldn't we have a tax code as unfair as the market itself...because input does NOT equal output in a good majority of the cases.

If you don't have an answer, my right-winged friend...then do you really have a gripe with foundation?

Whining sucks, don't it?

ryr8828
04-15-2007, 11:41 AM
I'm willing to pay 10%, as long as everyone pays 10%.

ryr8828
04-15-2007, 11:43 AM
I'm willing to pay 10%, as long as everyone pays 10%.

And by that I mean if you make $500 in a year, you pay $50.

If you make 5 million, you pay $500,000.

Jiddy78
04-15-2007, 11:49 AM
And by that I mean if you make $500 in a year, you pay $50.

If you make 5 million, you pay $500,000.

I understand...but that still is "unfair"....Why is someone paying $500,000 for the same service as someone who pays $50???

Would you conduct business this way?

ryr8828
04-15-2007, 12:01 PM
I understand...but that still is "unfair"....Why is someone paying $500,000 for the same service as someone who pays $50???

Would you conduct business this way?

Nothing is completely fair. Life is not fair.

It's an even percentage of tax on income, no matter how much you make.

The outcry won't be from your angle. It will be from those who pay less but use the same services.

Jiddy78
04-15-2007, 12:09 PM
Nothing is completely fair. Life is not fair.

It's an even percentage of tax on income, no matter how much you make.

The outcry won't be from your angle. It will be from those who pay less but use the same services.

I agree with this, for the most part...I especially abhor the concept of taxing certain income more or less than others (cap gains) or not at all (home gain exclusion)...Either tax it all equally...or none of it.

ryr8828
04-15-2007, 12:15 PM
I agree with this, for the most part...I especially abhor the concept of taxing certain income more or less than others (cap gains) or not at all (home gain exclusion)...Either tax it all equally...or none of it.

I'm talking net income. There is a cost of doing business. Some enterprises are more heavily overhead laden than others.

Jiddy78
04-15-2007, 12:23 PM
I'm talking net income. There is a cost of doing business. Some enterprises are more heavily overhead laden than others.

All tax is net with the exception of a double corporate taxation...if you want to go to the letter...A cap gain is determined after buying/selling costs, and if dealing with real property, improvements etc etc....

All gains should be taxed. Period. Make it simple. How much you make man? 100k...Ok...This is what you owe. Period.

It'll never happen because our government won't give up the "rip off the chindian" inflation gravy train...and people will be pissed if they have to pay tax on inflation rather than appreciation...

pnkpanther
04-15-2007, 04:27 PM
No, it's a simple redistribution of wealth mandated by government regulation. Robin Hood would be proud.

hmmm i am tired of all the red states leeching off the blue states

pnkpanther
04-15-2007, 04:36 PM
is paying taxes worse thing in world? man, those lucky poor people making less then 20k not having to pay taxes, god they're luck

ryr8828
04-15-2007, 04:36 PM
hmmm i am tired of all the red states leeching off the blue states

Sounds like a states rights, Republican Party sort of argument.

pnkpanther
04-15-2007, 04:40 PM
Sounds like a states rights, Republican Party sort of argument.

i am fiscally conservative you know

i have no problem with wealthier paying a higher % of taxes though, i dont like flat tax at all. And with all the capital tax gains exclusions that are coming, the wealthy are just fine, i dont worry about them.

and i do find it funny that our blue states drive the economy and pay more taxes out then get in, where as red states get more then they pay out...

ryr8828
04-15-2007, 04:44 PM
i am fiscally conservative you know

i have no problem with wealthier paying a higher % of taxes though, i dont like flat tax at all. And with all the capital tax gains exclusions that are coming, the wealthy are just fine, i dont worry about them.

and i do find it funny that our blue states drive the economy and pay more taxes out then get in, where as red states get more then they pay out...

Maybe you should post a thread about that, with proof, and we could discuss it.