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LSU
04-11-2007, 07:53 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070411/sc_nm/pope_evolution_dc&printer=1;_ylt=AmKkPYGXrDtd0rrKxxQ4MgkiANEA


Pope says science too narrow to explain creation

By Tom Heneghan, Religion EditorWed Apr 11, 6:07 AM ET

Pope Benedict, elaborating his views on evolution for the first time as Pontiff, says science has narrowed the way life's origins are understood and Christians should take a broader approach to the question.

The Pope also says the Darwinist theory of evolution is not completely provable because mutations over hundreds of thousands of years cannot be reproduced in a laboratory.

But Benedict, whose remarks were published on Wednesday in Germany in the book "Schoepfung und Evolution" (Creation and Evolution), praised scientific progress and did not endorse creationist or "intelligent design" views about life's origins.

Those arguments, proposed mostly by conservative Protestants and derided by scientists, have stoked recurring battles over the teaching of evolution in the United States. Some European Christians and Turkish Muslims have recently echoed these views.

"Science has opened up large dimensions of reason ... and thus brought us new insights," Benedict, a former theology professor, said at the closed-door seminar with his former doctoral students last September that the book documents.

"But in the joy at the extent of its discoveries, it tends to take away from us dimensions of reason that we still need. Its results lead to questions that go beyond its methodical canon and cannot be answered within it," he said.

"The issue is reclaiming a dimension of reason we have lost," he said, adding that the evolution debate was actually about "the great fundamental questions of philosophy - where man and the world came from and where they are going."

NOT BY FAITH ALONE

Speculation about Benedict's views on evolution have been rife ever since a former student and close advisor, Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, published an article in 2005 that seemed to align the Church with the "intelligent design" view.

"Intelligent design" (ID) argues that some forms of life are too complex to have evolved randomly, as Charles Darwin proposed in his 1859 book "The Origin of Species." It says a higher intelligence must have done this but does not name it as God.

Scientists denounce this as a disguised form of creationism, the view that God created the world just as the Bible says. U.S. courts have ruled both creationism and ID are religious views that cannot be taught in public school science classes there.

In the book, Benedict defended what is known as "theistic evolution," the view held by Roman Catholic, Orthodox and mainline Protestant churches that God created life through evolution and religion and science need not clash over this.

"I would not depend on faith alone to explain the whole picture," he remarked during the discussion held at the papal summer palace in Castel Gandolfo outside Rome.

He also denied using a "God-of-the-gaps" argument that sees divine intervention whenever science cannot explain something.

"It's not as if I wanted to stuff the dear God into these gaps - he is too great to fit into such gaps," he said in the book that publisher Sankt Ulrich Verlag in Augsburg said would later be translated into other languages.

AGAINST ATHEISM

Schoenborn, who published his own book on evolution last month, has said he and the German-born Pontiff addressed these issues now because many scientists use Darwin's theory to argue the random nature of evolution negated any role for God.

That is a philosophical or ideological conclusion not supported by facts, they say, because science cannot prove who or what originally created the universe and life in it.

"Both popular and scientific texts about evolution often say that 'nature' or 'evolution' has done this or that," Benedict said in the book which included lectures from theologian Schoenborn, two philosophers and a chemistry professor.

"Just who is this 'nature' or 'evolution' as (an active) subject? It doesn't exist at all!" the Pope said.

Benedict argued that evolution had a rationality that the theory of purely random selection could not explain.

"The process itself is rational despite the mistakes and confusion as it goes through a narrow corridor choosing a few positive mutations and using low probability," he said.

"This ... inevitably leads to a question that goes beyond science ... where did this rationality come from?" he asked. Answering his own question, he said it came from the "creative reason" of God.

Vegas
04-11-2007, 07:56 PM
Do you think the pope is scientifically educated enough to make a determination?

LSU
04-11-2007, 07:58 PM
Do you think the pope is scientifically educated enough to make a determination?



Educated in science? No. Educated in creation? Yes.

MTVike
04-11-2007, 07:58 PM
Sounds a lot like Vegas, and he's not even Catholic. :)

Vegas
04-11-2007, 08:00 PM
Educated in science? No. Educated in creation? Yes.

I'm of the opinion that the majority of clergy are not qualified in either.

MTVike
04-11-2007, 08:00 PM
Do you think the pope is scientifically educated enough to make a determination?

I think, like the President, he has numerous advisers that consult with him regarding the church's position on matters like these.

LSU
04-11-2007, 08:01 PM
I'm of the opinion that the majority of clergy are not qualified in either.



Hmm...that brings up a paradox...the clergy...people raised on the Bible and deemed good enough to teach it...don't know enough...so then how can any of us talk about Creation as if we know anything about it?

Vegas
04-11-2007, 08:08 PM
Hmm...that brings up a paradox...the clergy...people raised on the Bible and deemed good enough to teach it...don't know enough...so then how can any of us talk about Creation as if we know anything about it?

You're assuming that the clergy even reads their Bible. That's hardly the case in a lot of churches.

LSU
04-11-2007, 08:08 PM
You're assuming that the clergy even reads their Bible. That's hardly the case in a lot of churches.



Sounds like denominational warfare.

Nixon's Head
04-11-2007, 11:24 PM
The creator is Him...

http://www.randomfate.net/MT/media/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster-tm.jpg

BoredWithNoSB
04-20-2007, 02:54 PM
More talk form the Pope from Yahoo's news. Can anyone explain the methods one would take to pursue the bolded text? Just looking for design of the experiment:

VATICAN CITY - Pope Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven.

Benedict approved the findings of the International Theological Commission, which issued its long-awaited document on limbo on Origins, the documentary service of Catholic News Service, the news agency of the American Bishop's Conference.

"We can say we have many reasons to hope that there is salvation for these babies," the Rev. Luis Ladaria, a Jesuit who is the commission's secretary-general, told The Associated Press.

Although Catholics have long believed that children who die without being baptized are with original sin and thus excluded from heaven, the church has no formal doctrine on the matter. Theologians have long taught, however, that such children enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness, a state commonly called limbo, but without being in communion with God.

Pope John Paul II and Benedict had urged further study on limbo, in part because of "the pressing pastoral needs" sparked by the increase in abortion and the growing number of children who die without being baptized, the report said.

In the document, the commission said there were "serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and brought into eternal happiness."

It stressed, however, that "these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge."

Ladaria said no one could know for certain what becomes of unbaptized babies since Scripture is largely silent on the matter.

Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the document said.

The International Theological Commission is a body of Vatican-appointed theologians who advise the pope and the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Benedict headed the Congregation for two decades before becoming pope in 2005.

IBC
04-20-2007, 03:34 PM
No condoms for Africa! No abortion for AIDS victims!

Oh wait, wrong thing. Down with evolution!

LSU
04-20-2007, 03:39 PM
No condoms for Africa! No abortion for AIDS victims!

Oh wait, wrong thing. Down with evolution!


Actually, I think I've read somewhere that vertical transmission of AIDS is almost nonexistent right now because of the drug treatments for mama. Of course, that's only for the countries (and people) that can afford the drugs...

IBC
04-20-2007, 03:42 PM
Actually, I think I've read somewhere that vertical transmission of AIDS is almost nonexistent right now because of the drug treatments for mama. Of course, that's only for the countries (and people) that can afford the drugs...

Yes, I am a bit behind in my criticism of the backwards Catholic church.

First feed the soul! First feed the soul!

i_hate_righties
04-20-2007, 06:45 PM
More talk form the Pope from Yahoo's news. Can anyone explain the methods one would take to pursue the bolded text? Just looking for design of the experiment:

VATICAN CITY - Pope Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven.

Benedict approved the findings of the International Theological Commission, which issued its long-awaited document on limbo on Origins, the documentary service of Catholic News Service, the news agency of the American Bishop's Conference.

"We can say we have many reasons to hope that there is salvation for these babies," the Rev. Luis Ladaria, a Jesuit who is the commission's secretary-general, told The Associated Press.

Although Catholics have long believed that children who die without being baptized are with original sin and thus excluded from heaven, the church has no formal doctrine on the matter. Theologians have long taught, however, that such children enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness, a state commonly called limbo, but without being in communion with God.

Pope John Paul II and Benedict had urged further study on limbo, in part because of "the pressing pastoral needs" sparked by the increase in abortion and the growing number of children who die without being baptized, the report said.

In the document, the commission said there were "serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and brought into eternal happiness."

It stressed, however, that "these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge."

Ladaria said no one could know for certain what becomes of unbaptized babies since Scripture is largely silent on the matter.

Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the document said.

The International Theological Commission is a body of Vatican-appointed theologians who advise the pope and the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Benedict headed the Congregation for two decades before becoming pope in 2005.

What always bothered me growing up Catholic, was that yes, scripture is silent on the matter of what becomes of unbaptized infants, but it is very clear about worshiping false Idols, or putting false gods before God...Yet we pray to the Virgin Mary, and every Saint we can think of!...Scripture also says that jesus had brothers and sisters, which would make Mary a non-virgin, unless she adopted!!:rolleyes:

LSU
04-20-2007, 06:48 PM
What always bothered me growing up Catholic, was that yes, scripture is silent on the matter of what becomes of unbaptized infants, but it is very clear about worshiping false Idols, or putting false gods before God...Yet we pray to the Virgin Mary, and every Saint we can think of!...Scripture also says that jesus had brothers and sisters, which would make Mary a non-virgin, unless she adopted!!:rolleyes:


Questioning makes you a bad Christian. Repent or burn for eternity.


Alternatively, I've heard questioning your religion makes you a stronger believer because it's not blind faith, it's reconciling your differences with certain questions and your answers still lead you to God...much better supposedly than just saying what you're told.


So, either or.

i_hate_righties
04-20-2007, 06:50 PM
Yes, I am a bit behind in my criticism of the backwards Catholic church.

First feed the soul! First feed the soul!


And then theres lent and not eating meat on fridays!...I dont eat meat on fridays anyway, or mondays, tuesdays, wednesdays , or thursdays, but scripture states....

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

i_hate_righties
04-20-2007, 06:54 PM
Questioning makes you a bad Christian. Repent or burn for eternity.


Alternatively, I've heard questioning your religion makes you a stronger believer because it's not blind faith, it's reconciling your differences with certain questions and your answers still lead you to God...much better supposedly than just saying what you're told.


So, either or.

Questioning Religious dogma prevents you from becoming another sheep!...I dont question my faith, and realizing that Christianity is more about spirituality than man made rules, does lead you closer to god, IMO

LSU
04-20-2007, 06:56 PM
Questioning Religious dogma prevents you from becoming another sheep!...I dont question my faith, and realizing that Christianity is more about spirituality than man made rules, does lead you closer to god, IMO



Yeah, I was going to mention that...questioning your faith is not what I meant exactly, but questioning certain ideas, certain teachings, et al...and not really questioning them, but having questions about them...

Either way, I think you explained it better than I did.

i_hate_righties
04-20-2007, 07:01 PM
Yeah, I was going to mention that...questioning your faith is not what I meant exactly, but questioning certain ideas, certain teachings, et al...and not really questioning them, but having questions about them...

Either way, I think you explained it better than I did.


Is this a first?

LSU
04-20-2007, 07:02 PM
Is this a first?



Just throwing you a bone...

Krok
05-22-2007, 07:15 PM
"Scripture also says that jesus had brothers and sisters, which would make Mary a non-virgin, unless she adopted!"

"Brothers and sisters" who were mentioned in the Scripture were actually Jesus cousins or second cousins. You were confused, because in Israel both siblings and cousins were called brothers or sisters.

It can be proven if you read New Testament Jn 19:26,27, where you will find out that Jesus wanted John to take care of his mother. Maria started living in John's house when Jesus died. According to Israel laws and tradition this wouldn't be possible if Maria had any other children, because that would be their duty then.