Since 911 what do you really know about Isalm?

[KinjaKahn]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/kinjakahn/mosque.jpg


What do you know about its teachings and traditions? It's history and its present?

[ryr8828]

I know that they get on my nerves. Them or the Indians, whoever the hell it is buying up all the convenience stores and motels. They suck.

[LSU]

I know that they get on my nerves. Them or the Indians, whoever the hell it is buying up all the convenience stores and motels. They suck.


Fuckin' Hindus.

[IBC]

I know that they get on my nerves. Them or the Indians, whoever the hell it is buying up all the convenience stores and motels. They suck.
Yeah, whole cultures suck.

[LSU]

I know I've heard a lot of Muslims say what the terrorists are doing is not Islam, and that it's a black eye on the religion.

[Jiddy78]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/kinjakahn/mosque.jpg


What do you know about its teachings and traditions? It's history and its present?

Very little. Teach me something.


Now, for your question:

Can you teach me something without at this phase in the game? I'm betting against you.

[Tom Joad]

Since 911 what do you really know about Isalm?

For one thing, I know it's spelled, "Islam."

[Iron Jaw]

For one thing, I know it's spelled, "Islam."

Of course, popular spellings change on occasion.

I remember when I was a kid, when referring to members of Islam, we used the term Moslems, which for years, was the accepted English spelling.

The first time I remember the use of Muslim was when boxer Cassius Clay changed his name and announced he was a Black Muslim. At first, I thought that a Moslem was different than a Muslim.

I rarely see it spelled Moslem anymore.

Of course, in those days, instead of calling the capital of China Beijing, as it is known today, we used the popular English pronunciation of "Peking." When I first heard Beijing, I thought it was a different Chinese city.

But I haven't seen "Isalm" used yet. I guess it was a typo.:D Or a new trend.:cool:

[Hotpapa666]

I know I've heard a lot of Muslims say what the terrorists are doing is not Islam, and that it's a black eye on the religion.

I've heard that as well. And I call foul. If these people aren't doing the will of their God, then their God should do something about it. Or, is God like that Indian on the old commercial, looking over the trash heap, looking noble and shedding one, lone tear in response. Maybe God's only real role on Earth is to make statues of Mary cry and statues of Jesus Bleed and to give the stigmata to Catholic monks every 1,000 years or so.

Or, maybe their is no God.

Or, maybe, their book, which they claim to be word of God, is just as if not more confusing as the Christian and Jewish books which claim to be the word of God. And, as such, the words of those books can be read to mean just about anything. How valuable is a book that offers as many possible "readings" of its text as their are "readers"? I've concluded not very.

Not an attack on LSU in case anyone read it that way. Just a little perspective on religion.

[Ed Who?]

Yeah, whole cultures suck.

Does CAIR represent the whole culture?

[Jiddy78]

Very little. Teach me something.


Now, for your question:

Can you teach me something without BIAS at this phase in the game? I'm betting against you.

Missed an important word there...

[IBC]

Does CAIR represent the whole culture?

Not at all what I responded to.

[KinjaKahn]

For one thing, I know it's spelled, "Islam."
If I had chose to deviate from the correct spelling, rest assured it would have been Islame.

[Tom Joad]

If I had chose to deviate from the correct spelling, rest assured it would have been Islame.

That's awesome...or not.

[KinjaKahn]

That's awesome...or not.
Can you speak on Islam and Muhammad? So far nobody has taken the opportunity to offer their perspective, including you. What do you know?

[Tom Joad]

Can you speak on Islam and Muhammad? So far nobody has taken the opportunity to offer their perspective, including you. What do you know?

What would you like to know? I've read a few books about Islam and I studied it (I minored in religious studies in college).

I think Islam is very misunderstood. There are very radically conservative elements that have, through force, taken over many Muslim countries. However, not all Muslims are radical jihadists. I think some of their practices are arcane, impractical and mysoginistic but I would rather try to understand their culture as a cultural relativist rather than imposing my Western standards upon them. I denounce FGM and would work strongly to prevent that from happening, if my voice would make any difference (however, it is not only Islam that uses this practice).

[KinjaKahn]

What would you like to know? I've read a few books about Islam and I studied it (I minored in religious studies in college).

I think Islam is very misunderstood. There are very radically conservative elements that have, through force, taken over many Muslim countries. However, not all Muslims are radical jihadists. I think some of their practices are arcane, impractical and mysoginistic but I would rather try to understand their culture as a cultural relativist rather than imposing my Western standards upon them. I denounce FGM and would work strongly to prevent that from happening, if my voice would make any difference (however, it is not only Islam that uses this practice).
I cannot resist... mysoginistic is spelled : misogynistic.

I did highlight that you claim its misunderstood... and that is an understatement to say the least, however they are not "mysoginistic", the women of their culture have a much different role then that of the women of the west. To assert they are "mysoginistic" is pretty much an attack on their culture, you claim you "would rather try to understand their culture as a cultural relativist rather than imposing my Western standards upon them." Yet you judge them based upon western standard.

[Tom Joad]

I cannot resist... mysoginistic is spelled : misogynistic.

I did highlight that you claim its misunderstood... and that is an understatement to say the least, however they are not "mysoginistic", the women of their culture have a much different role then that of the women of the west. To assert they are "mysoginistic" is pretty much an attack on their culture, you claim you "would rather try to understand their culture as a cultural relativist rather than imposing my Western standards upon them." Yet you judge them based upon western standard.

An attack on their culture? That's way off base. Women in Islam are held back by the conservative reading of the Quran (much the same way women were held back in Western society).

[KinjaKahn]

An attack on their culture? That's way off base. Women in Islam are held back by the conservative reading of the Quran (much the same way women were held back in Western society).
There is no conservative reading of the Qu'ran. It is in Arabic. It is considered divine and not subject to interpretation or reform. To reform the Qu'ran would be the collapse of the "faith". All translations of the Qu'ran are invalid, when any perceived inconsistency arises. Women being held back is merely an opinion, and an opinion based upon the fallacy of equality.

[Tom Joad]

There is no conservative reading of the Qu'ran. It is in Arabic. It is considered divine and not subject to interpretation or reform. To reform the Qu'ran would be the collapse of the "faith". All translations of the Qu'ran are invalid, when any perceived inconsistency arises. Women being held back is merely an opinion, and an opinion based upon the fallacy of equality.

There ARE different INTERPRETATIONS of the Quran, evidence of this can be seen in the various sects that exist in Islam. As for your statement that "women being held back is only my opinion," you SPECIFICALLY asked what my perspective on the religion was (perspective: Subjective evaluation of relative significance or The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole). If you didn't want my view on the subject then why do you take me to task when I offer it?

[KinjaKahn]

There ARE different INTERPRETATIONS of the Quran, evidence of this can be seen in the various sects that exist in Islam.
The sects differ for the most part due to the Caliph's views... mostly based on Hadiths. The Shia sect in particular divided because they didn't like the succession of Caliphs. The succession of the Caliph was not specified in the Qu'ran. Hadiths are also argued over all sects.
]As for your statement that "women being held back is only my opinion," you SPECIFICALLY asked what my perspective on the religion was (perspective: Subjective evaluation of relative significance or The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole). If you didn't want my view on the subject then why do you take me to task when I offer it?
You left the religion realm when inferring that women are also held back in western society. I asked about the religion.

[Tom Joad]

The sects differ for the most part due to the Caliph's views... mostly based on Hadiths. The Shia sect in particular divided because they didn't like the succession of Caliphs. The succession of the Caliph was not specified in the Qu'ran. Hadiths are also argued over all sects.

You left the religion realm when inferring that women are also held back in western society. I asked about the religion.


First, it is not only Caliphs but it is also interpretation and acceptance of lesser prophets and offshoots(such as Dervishes, esoteric readings, etc).

Second, I stated that based upon the conservative reading of the Quran, women were being held back. That means the only comparison I was making was to other Muslims that do not hold such strict views. So, I did not leave the "religion realm" because I was being, as I claimed I was trying to be, a cultural relativist.

[KinjaKahn]

First, it is not only Caliphs but it is also interpretation and acceptance of lesser prophets and offshoots(such as Dervishes, esoteric readings, etc).I am starting to see what you are getting at... Again, though the mystical branches of Islam are born of the Hadiths... in particular a hadith in which Muhammed is said to have claimed that the Qu'ran has meanings which muslims are not supposed to understand, meanings that are only known to Allah and who he chooses to enlighten (Muhammed). Layers and layers of meanings. This is simply a mechanism to quiet those who would question certain tenants of the faith. The dervish muslims are offshoot of the Sufi mystical sect and its not that they have an interpretation as much as they are looking for hidden meanings. The Qu'ran stands as it is. Unchanged. Hadiths on the other hand are not Divine and open for debate.

Lesser Prophets? Surely you are talking about some of the righteous four caliphs. If so they are not PROPHETS nor are they SAINTS in Islam. All the prophets other than Muhammad are Jews. Adam, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, David, Solomon, John the Baptist, Joseph, Jesus etc...

Second, I stated that based upon the conservative reading of the Quran, women were being held back. That means the only comparison I was making was to other Muslims that do not hold such strict views. So, I did not leave the "religion realm" because I was being, as I claimed I was trying to be, a cultural relativist.
I disagree... and it is irrelevant. I see it as an "unabashed liberal" trying to slide his disappointment with western society into the mix. The inequality of women to men has been there since day 1.

[Tom Joad]

I disagree... and it is irrelevant. I see it as an "unabashed liberal" trying to slide his disappointment with western society into the mix. The inequality of women to men has been there since day 1.

This is why I dislike debating with you. Not once did I mention your political affiliation, but you must always throw that in there. Well, guess what? I don't give a shit what you see. I know what I've learned and I know that the various sects that make up Islam have radically different interpretations of everything from the treatment of women to the succession of leaders.

[KinjaKahn]

This is why I dislike debating with you. Not once did I mention your political affiliation, but you must always throw that in there. Well, guess what? I don't give a shit what you see. I know what I've learned and I know that the various sects that make up Islam have radically different interpretations of everything from the treatment of women to the succession of leaders.
So why did you bring a comparative judgment based on western culture into the conversation? After stating that you didn't want to be "imposing my Western standards".

While you have the right idea about not imposing western values on them, western values themselves are imposing upon them. Their treatment of women is valid in accordance to the Qu'ran. The woman in Islam is not anywhere near equal to a man. The Qu'ran stands as it is written. Nothing in it can be disputed by a Muslim. The Mystical sects simply look for things that are not spoken in the text. They do not alter what is said or take whats said to mean something else.

I apologize for angering you, I wish you could have stayed on the topic of Islam.

[Tom Joad]

So why did you bring a comparative judgment based on western culture into the conversation? After stating that you didn't want to be "imposing my Western standards".

While you have the right idea about not imposing western values on them, western values themselves are imposing upon them. Their treatment of women is valid in accordance to the Qu'ran. The woman in Islam is not anywhere near equal to a man. The Qu'ran stands as it is written. Nothing in it can be disputed by a Muslim. The Mystical sects simply look for things that are not spoken in the text. They do not alter what is said or take whats said to mean something else.

I apologize for angering you, I wish you could have stayed on the topic of Islam.

Please re-read the earlier posts and look up words you don't understand...it may help you the next time you completely miss the point.

In Islam there is absolutely no difference between men and women as far as their relationship to Allah is concerned, as both are promised the same reward for good conduct and the same punishment for evil conduct. The Qur'an says:

And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)
The Qur'an, in addressing the believers, often uses the expression,'believing men and women' to emphasize the equality of men and women in regard to their respective duties, rights, virtues and merits. It says:

For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (33:35)
This clearly contradicts the assertion of the Christian Fathers that women do not possess souls and that they will exist as sexless beings in the next life. The Qur'an says that women have souls in exactly the same way as men and will enter Paradise if they do good :

Enter into Paradise, you and your wives, with delight. (43:70)
Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will We quicken to happy life. (16:97)

The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women:
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)
Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul. The Qur'an declares:

O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

[KinjaKahn]

Main Entry: mi·sog·y·ny
Pronunciation: m&-'sä-j&-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynE woman -- more at QUEEN
: a hatred of women
- miso·gy·nic /"mi-s&-'ji-nik, -'gI-/ adjective
- mi·sog·y·nist /m&-'sä-j&-nist/ noun or adjective
- mi·sog·y·nis·tic /m&-"sä-j&-'nis-tik/ adjective


Which definition do you choose? Oh wait there is only one.

[Land_Shark]

Women being held back is merely an opinion, and an opinion based upon the fallacy of equality.

Are you saying that women are not equal? What do you mean when you say that it is "an opinion based upon the fallacy of equality"?

[KinjaKahn]

Are you saying that women are not equal? What do you mean when you say that it is "an opinion based upon the fallacy of equality"?
Carry a child to full term and get back to me...

[Tom Joad]

Main Entry: mi·sog·y·ny
Pronunciation: m&-'sä-j&-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynE woman -- more at QUEEN
: a hatred of women
- miso·gy·nic /"mi-s&-'ji-nik, -'gI-/ adjective
- mi·sog·y·nist /m&-'sä-j&-nist/ noun or adjective
- mi·sog·y·nis·tic /m&-"sä-j&-'nis-tik/ adjective


Which definition do you choose? Oh wait there is only one.


Holy Jebus! I said, now follow closely, that the Quran says one thing and it is interpreted too strictly (conservatively). I don't know why I bother with you.

[Tom Joad]

Are you saying that women are not equal? What do you mean when you say that it is "an opinion based upon the fallacy of equality"?

He's not sure.

[KinjaKahn]

Holy Jebus! I said, now follow closely, that the Quran says one thing and it is interpreted too strictly (conservatively). I don't know why I bother with you.
You do not get it. The Qu'ran is divine within Islam. It's written in the same language spoken today. It's not too strict. Islam is Islam... you are confusing practitioners with the faith. I did not start the conversation to discuss the differences of Muslims based on what parts of their faith they reject or disregard.

[KinjaKahn]

He's not sure.Not sure about what?
So explain your assertion that Muslims hate women and then compare that to your cited verses. Then figure out what you mean, and say that.

[Tom Joad]

You do not get it. The Qu'ran is divine within Islam. It's written in the same language spoken today. It's not too strict. Islam is Islam... you are confusing practitioners with the faith. I did not start the conversation to discuss the differences of Muslims based on what parts of their faith they reject or disregard.

You can post that over and over and that still isn't what we're talking about. Cultural relativism asserts that you look at a society based upon it's own set of rules. The Quran asserts (and feel free to re-read my early post with citations) that women and men are equal. However, strict interpretations (selective interpretations?) prevent women from having anything nearing equality.

[KinjaKahn]

You can post that over and over and that still isn't what we're talking about. Cultural relativism asserts that you look at a society based upon it's own set of rules. The Quran asserts (and feel free to re-read my early post with citations) that women and men are equal. However, strict interpretations (selective interpretations?) prevent women from having anything nearing equality.
You can look at their society all day, it wont tell you anything about Islam, you have to know the history and how they got to where they are. It seems to me that you think Islam is limited to what is in the Qu'ran. Much of Islamic society is based from the lessons and actions of Muhammad, these are recorded in the Hadiths. Where you got the Idea that women are hated is beyond me.

Off to work...

[IBC]

There ARE different INTERPRETATIONS of the Quran, evidence of this can be seen in the various sects that exist in Islam. As for your statement that "women being held back is only my opinion," you SPECIFICALLY asked what my perspective on the religion was (perspective: Subjective evaluation of relative significance or The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole). If you didn't want my view on the subject then why do you take me to task when I offer it?

Yes and yes.

[Tom Joad]

You can look at their society all day, it wont tell you anything about Islam, you have to know the history and how they got to where they are. It seems to me that you think Islam is limited to what is in the Qu'ran. Much of Islamic society is based from the lessons and actions of Muhammad, these are recorded in the Hadiths. Where you got the Idea that women are hated is beyond me.

Off to work...

You're wrong about what I think.

[pukematrixx]

What do you want to know? I like Tom have read a number of texts on it, and being in Kuwait have learned a lot more than I have read. Tom is right btw, one book, but numerous interpretations. Islam since the day Mohammed died has been in constant turmoil

[KinjaKahn]

What do you want to know? I like Tom have read a number of texts on it, and being in Kuwait have learned a lot more than I have read. Tom is right btw, one book, but numerous interpretations. Islam since the day Mohammed died has been in constant turmoil
Surely you and Tom can come up with an example each about how the Qu'ran says one thing and the offshoot sects disregard and teach an alternative idea. I can't wait!

[Tom Joad]

Surely you and Tom can come up with an example each about how the Qu'ran says one thing and the offshoot sects disregard and teach an alternative idea. I can't wait!


http://www.thepartisanpatriot.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20406&postcount=26

[KinjaKahn]

http://www.thepartisanpatriot.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20406&postcount=26

Please re-read the earlier posts and look up words you don't understand...it may help you the next time you completely miss the point.
LOL


In Islam there is absolutely no difference between men and women as far as their relationship to Allah is concerned, as both are promised the same reward for good conduct and the same punishment for evil conduct. The Qur'an says:

And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)
Fabrication. Please consult a real Qu'ran. Heres 2:226 in context...

[2.222] And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore
keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near
them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves,
go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn
much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
[2.223] Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and
do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and
know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
[2.224] And make not Allah because of your swearing (by Him) an obstacle to
your doing good and guarding (against evil) and making peace between men,
and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[2.225] Allah does not call you to account for what is vain in your oaths, but
He will call you to account for what your hearts have earned, and Allah is
Forgiving, Forbearing.
[2.226] Those who swear that they will not go in to their wives should wait
four months; so if they go back, then Allah is surely Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.227] And if they have resolved on a divorce, then Allah is surely Hearing,
Knowing.
[2.228] And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three
courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has
created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their
husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish
for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just
manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Whoa whats that say??? a degree above them??? How is that Equal?

The Qur'an, in addressing the believers, often uses the expression,'believing men and women' to emphasize the equality of men and women in regard to their respective duties, rights, virtues and merits. It says:

For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (33:35)
LOL That kinda doesn't mix with this sura verse...

[2.282] O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.
This clearly contradicts the assertion of the Christian Fathers that women do not possess souls and that they will exist as sexless beings in the next life. The Qur'an says that women have souls in exactly the same way as men and will enter Paradise if they do good :

Enter into Paradise, you and your wives, with delight. (43:70)
Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will We quicken to happy life. (16:97)
I see now where you got the scoop on Islam. Women have no souls... news to me. Never have I ever heard that.

The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women:
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

How many husbands can a Woman have? Men can have up to four.

[4.3] And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

[KinjaKahn]

Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul. The Qur'an declares:

O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

I see a lot of verses "you" use are close to the ones I posted and its funny how they seem contradictory.

[hannitykillspuppies]

So why did you bring a comparative judgment based on western culture into the conversation? .

didn't 9/11 happen because of a dislike of western culture?

[KinjaKahn]

didn't 9/11 happen because of a dislike of western culture?
One reason it happened is because the US People didn't submit to Allah by taking the shahada and instituting sharia law. Another reason it happened is because of infidel presence in the Saudi Arabia. Another reason it happened is the United States' unwavering support of Israel. Bin Laden gave us a chance to avoid it in his declaration of war against the US back in 1996 and he has since reiterated his demands just this past summer. Which could mean another attack is set to take place or maybe he's bluffing. But according to Islamic Law, he must offer you the chance to surrender to Allah prior to killing you.

Isn't it odd that 130+ Islamic "Scholars" from every sect of Islam, write an open letter to Christians about the future of the world is at stake if the Christians do not make Peace with the Muslims? Meanwhile, Christianity is not at "war" with Islam. So much for the "moderate" muslims many here and in the media tout. I am not surprised by their unity in the least. Whether you buy into this "Holy War" or not, The USA is considered by them, to be the Christians, your ideals and rights that are held high in the West coexist, even if opposed, with Christianity. Many philosophies expressed here on this board would be outlawed under Islamic Law. Just look at Lebanon if you want to see some results of Islamic power within a "Democracy". Also keep in mind that Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and almost every other nation in the region is a Monarchy or Neodictatorship Pseudo-democracy.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/pictures/big/_15678_london-demo-7-2-2006.jpg