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LSU
08-21-2007, 09:55 PM
Thought this was an interesting read, considering some stances here.

http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=423C1809-E7F2-99DF-384721C9252B924A


Rational Atheism

An open letter to Messrs. Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens

By Michael Shermer


Since the turn of the millennium, a new militancy has arisen among religious skeptics in response to three threats to science and freedom: (1) attacks against evolution education and stem cell research; (2) breaks in the barrier separating church and state leading to political preferences for some faiths over others; and (3) fundamentalist terrorism here and abroad. Among many metrics available to track this skeptical movement is the ascension of four books to the august heights of the New York Times best-seller list—Sam Harris’s Letter to a Christian Nation (Knopf, 2006), Daniel Dennett’s Breaking the Spell (Viking, 2006), Christopher Hitchens’s God Is Not Great (Hachette Book Group, 2007) and Richard Dawkins’s The God Delusion (Houghton Mifflin, 2006)—that together, in Dawkins’s always poignant prose, “raise consciousness to the fact that to be an atheist is a realistic aspiration, and a brave and splendid one. You can be an atheist who is happy, balanced, moral and intellectually fulfilled.” Amen, brother.

Whenever religious beliefs conflict with scientific facts or violate principles of political liberty, we must respond with appropriate aplomb. Nevertheless, we should be cautious about irrational exuberance. I suggest that we raise our consciousness one tier higher for the following reasons.

1. Anti-something movements by themselves will fail. Atheists cannot simply define themselves by what they do not believe. As Austrian economist Ludwig von Mises warned his anti-Communist colleagues in the 1950s: “An anti-something movement displays a purely negative attitude. It has no chance whatever to succeed. Its passionate diatribes virtually advertise the program they attack. People must fight for something that they want to achieve, not simply reject an evil, however bad it may be.”

2. Positive assertions are necessary. Champion science and reason, as Charles Darwin suggested: “It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against Christianity & theism produce hardly any effect on the public; & freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men’s minds which follow[s] from the advance of science. It has, therefore, been always my object to avoid writing on religion, & I have confined myself to science.”

3. Rational is as rational does. If it is our goal to raise people’s consciousness to the wonders of science and the power of reason, then we must apply science and reason to our own actions. It is irrational to take a hostile or condescending attitude toward religion because by doing so we virtually guarantee that religious people will respond in kind. As Carl Sagan cautioned in “The Burden of Skepticism,” a 1987 lecture, “You can get into a habit of thought in which you enjoy making fun of all those other people who don’t see things as clearly as you do. We have to guard carefully against it.”

4. The golden rule is symmetrical. In the words of the greatest conscious*ness raiser of the 20th century, Mart*in Luther King, Jr., in his epic “I Have a Dream” speech: “In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrong*ful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline.” If atheists do not want theists to prejudge them in a negative light, then they must not do unto theists the same.

5. Promote freedom of belief and disbelief. A higher moral principle that encompasses both science and religion is the freedom to think, believe and act as we choose, so long as our thoughts, beliefs and actions do not infringe on the equal freedom of others. As long as religion does not threaten science and freedom, we should be respectful and tolerant because our freedom to disbelieve is inextricably bound to the freedom of others to believe.


As King, in addition, noted: “The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.”

Rational atheism values the truths of science and the power of reason, but the principle of freedom stands above both science and religion.

Hotpapa666
08-21-2007, 11:01 PM
An interesting article with some good points made. However, it deals in hypotheticals that aren't really appropriate today. Science IS being infringed upon by Religious beliefs, Everyday life IS being infringed upon by Religion. Scientists are much more like Martin Luther King than Religious people are. You don't hear about Scientists calling for the deaths of those who disagree with them as religious people, or blowing up churches as Religious people have abortion clinics. There haven't been any Scientific Wars in Human history...

I think that Scientists, they want to move people's thinking away from deism need to be a more gentle than Dawkins and Hutchins...

LSU
08-21-2007, 11:10 PM
An interesting article with some good points made. However, it deals in hypotheticals that aren't really appropriate today. Science IS being infringed upon by Religious beliefs, Everyday life IS being infringed upon by Religion. Scientists are much more like Martin Luther King than Religious people are. You don't hear about Scientists calling for the deaths of those who disagree with them as religious people, or blowing up churches as Religious people have abortion clinics. There haven't been any Scientific Wars in Human history...

I think that Scientists, they want to move people's thinking away from deism need to be a more gentle than Dawkins and Hutchins...


I think you can make an argument, and a very valid one, that a certain subset of Christians are infringing upon science...and perhaps a certain subset of scientists (or perhaps atheists as the article is about) infringe on religion. Of course, the majority of both groups stay out of each others' business. The minority, as usual, seem to be the loudest.

MTVike
08-21-2007, 11:50 PM
Scientific thought is a subset of our human reality, it cannot explain the totality of our existence.

Science deals with matter...religion/spirituality deals with mankind.

Man does not live by rational thought alone.

LSU
08-22-2007, 12:02 AM
Man does not live by rational thought alone.


I would agree, particularly based on some of the irrational thought I encounter here.

MTVike
08-22-2007, 12:09 AM
I would agree, particularly based on some of the irrational thought I encounter here.

Rational thought is a good thing. It's just not the be and end all for me.

There's too much more to my experience. And sprituality and religious pracitice is part of that.

I can't prove it's the correct way to live to anyone here, but it is for me.

But to try to disprove God and religiosity through "rational" thought misses the point, in my opinion.

You point out that Jesus wasn't a Politician. Agreed. He wasn't a scientist, either.

And his Word was as simple and pure as it needed to be reach the most modest of intellects of the world. Which to me, seems to be most harmonious.

LSU
08-22-2007, 12:12 AM
Rational thought is a good thing. It's just not the be and end all for me.

There's too much more to my experience. And sprituality and religious pracitice is part of that.

I can't prove it's the correct way to live to anyone here, but it is for me.

But to try to disprove God and religiosity through "rational" thought misses the point, in my opinion.

You point out that Jesus wasn't a Politician. Agreed. He wasn't a scientist, either.

And his Word was as simple and pure as it needed to be reach the most modest of intellects of the world. Which to me, seems to be most harmonious.


I think you miss the point of my writings. Or misconstrue, at least.

MTVike
08-22-2007, 12:22 AM
I think you miss the point of my writings. Or misconstrue, at least.


Quite possibly, since I haven't visited or written here for a while.

It's not much fun. The polemics here shed light on the wisdom Ryr and Sully showed when they prohibited religious and political discussion on sportsboards.

Things get nasty quick. I think you can give your personal observation and experience in these matters, but to try to convince others of the "validity" of your opinion...happened lately to anyone here?

LSU
08-22-2007, 12:28 AM
Quite possibly, since I haven't visited or written here for a while.

It's not much fun. The polemics here shed light on the wisdom Ryr and Sully showed when they prohibited religious and political discussion on sportsboards.

Things get nasty quick. I think you can give your personal observation and experience in these matters, but to try to convince others of the "validity" of your opinion...happened lately to anyone here?



Not in awhile. I would say not since early afternoon.

MTVike
08-22-2007, 12:32 AM
Not in awhile. I would say not since early afternoon.

Let me revise my last statement. Once in a therapy seminar in grad school the prof asked me to try to pick a piece off paper of the floor. When I picked it up, she said, "I didn't say pick it up, I said try to pick it up."

So, has anyone had their religious/political convictions fundamentally changed since joining this board?

LSU
08-22-2007, 12:36 AM
Let me revise my last statement. Once in a therapy seminar in grad school the prof asked me to try to pick a piece off paper of the floor. When I picked it up, she said, "I didn't say pick it up, I said try to pick it up."

So, has anyone had their religious/political convictions fundamentally changed since joining this board?


I've changed everyone's minds. But I'm responsible with my great powers, and quickly change it back for them so as to not confuse them.


As for convincing of validity...there are few trains of thought that I don't consider valid. Even the ones that are in complete disagreement with mine. Despite how I may defend my stance, I do take the points of opposition and piece them together to understand the reasoning.

However, if the reasoning doesn't match up, that's when I start to have a hard time with it...

And I'll say that I don't think all rational thought has to be grounded in science. Rational thought is just that...rational.

MTVike
08-22-2007, 12:44 AM
I've changed everyone's minds. But I'm responsible with my great powers, and quickly change it back for them so as to not confuse them.


As for convincing of validity...there are few trains of thought that I don't consider valid. Even the ones that are in complete disagreement with mine. Despite how I may defend my stance, I do take the points of opposition and piece them together to understand the reasoning.

However, if the reasoning doesn't match up, that's when I start to have a hard time with it...

And I'll say that I don't think all rational thought has to be grounded in science. Rational thought is just that...rational.

An avenue to sharpen your debating skills, eh? That has its place, for sure.

Does the topic matter so much to you?

LSU
08-22-2007, 12:45 AM
A place to sharpen your debating skills, eh? That has its place, for sure.

Does the topic matter so much to you?



Most topics, yes.

I used to think of it as a place to sharpen debating skills, but then I realized I have no need to debate many people in real life. And it just got to be interesting to hear the other side, and what they have against my side.

Edit: in other words, I think you really don't know your side of a point until you know clearly the other side's point.

MTVike
08-22-2007, 12:51 AM
Most topics, yes.

I used to think of it as a place to sharpen debating skills, but then I realized I have no need to debate many people in real life. And it just got to be interesting to hear the other side, and what they have against my side.

Edit: in other words, I think you really don't know your side of a point until you know clearly the other side's point.

Well, it's difficult to defend "your side" of the arugment in matters such as these since they are often belief-based positions, not ones than can be boiled down to common elements.

Funny, Fan and I had this type of discussion over fandom once. Doesn't make sense, it just is.

LSU
08-22-2007, 12:57 AM
Well, it's difficult to defend "your side" of the arugment in matters such as these since they are often belief-based positions, not ones than can be boiled down to common elements.

Funny, Fan and I had this type of discussion over fandom once. Doesn't make sense, it just is.



My thoughts on that are that if you (or anyone) finds it difficult to defend, then perhaps your faith/belief isn't as strong as you think.

I'm not talking about providing facts to get from point A to point B, but rather what's going on to make you believe what you believe. It's not something that's to convince anyone else that it's the right way, just that it's the way you choose and why.


If people wanted to tell me that water is blue because light reflects off of water molecules, causing a blue hue, and the sky is blue because it reflects the color of water, that's fine. As long as they can explain it. If it makes sense, it makes sense. If it's big leaps from point A to point B, then I'm much less convinced.

Hotpapa666
08-22-2007, 01:27 AM
Scientific thought is a subset of our human reality, it cannot explain the totality of our existence.

Science deals with matter...religion/spirituality deals with mankind.

Man does not live by rational thought alone.

I would make an arguement similar to one that I have heard Richard Dawkins use. And that is just because you make a gramtically correct sentence/question doesn't mean that that sentence/question has any meaning. In the same way that I can ask, "What does the color purple feel like?", which is as perfectly legitimate gramtically as it is perfectly non-sensical rationally, you can ask a question like "What is the nature of the soul?", which, is just as perfectly non-sensical wondering how a color feels. If an idea can't be understood rationally, it is an invalid idea.

Religion is full of these types of questions, and they all rely on people accepting the premise "There is a God", for their answers, which are equally mysterous. Like, 'it was meant to be', 'it's god's will', "I feel the power of the lord in my soul'....

I have recently been criticized for insulting people on this board. I am not trying to insult anyone or their faith. I'm not belittling anyone's ideas. I am simply outlining my position on Religion.

MTVike
08-22-2007, 11:05 PM
My thoughts on that are that if you (or anyone) finds it difficult to defend, then perhaps your faith/belief isn't as strong as you think.I'm not talking about providing facts to get from point A to point B, but rather what's going on to make you believe what you believe. It's not something that's to convince anyone else that it's the right way, just that it's the way you choose and why.


If people wanted to tell me that water is blue because light reflects off of water molecules, causing a blue hue, and the sky is blue because it reflects the color of water, that's fine. As long as they can explain it. If it makes sense, it makes sense. If it's big leaps from point A to point B, then I'm much less convinced.

Want me to start my own crusades?

Faith in the existence of God and the divinity of Jesus Christ can't be proven through reason. At least for most of us. Meh, Strobel's "A Case for Christ" may disagree somewhat.

Each person needs to find truth in spirituality for themselves. Or not. They won't be convinced of it through argument alone. Neither will you be unconvinced of your faith by "rational" atheistic arguments, once you've experienced God's grace.

Hear, accept, and incorporate the Word, or don't.

LSU
08-22-2007, 11:07 PM
Want me to start my own crusades?

Faith in the existence of God and the divinity of Jesus Christ can't be proven through reason. At least for most of us. Meh, Strobel's "A Case for Christ" may disagree somewhat.

Each person needs to find truth in spirituality for themselves. Or not. They won't be convinced of it through argument alone. Neither will you be unconvinced of your faith by "rational" atheistic arguments, once you've experienced God's grace.

Hear, accept, and incorporate the Word, or don't.


I'm not asking for anything convincing. There's a difference between a convincing argument and a rational or logical one.

Roy Munson
08-22-2007, 11:12 PM
Let me revise my last statement. Once in a therapy seminar in grad school the prof asked me to try to pick a piece off paper of the floor. When I picked it up, she said, "I didn't say pick it up, I said try to pick it up."

So, has anyone had their religious/political convictions fundamentally changed since joining this board?
If the point is to change minds, I think its time to close up shop because it ain't gonna happen.