God is Not Great

[Hotpapa666]

The latest installment from Christopher Hitchens. Mr. Hitchens, along with Richard Dawkins, is one of the world's most famous atheist writers. Hitchens takes a wholistic approach in attacking organized religion, going after the social ills caused by religion, as well as the scientific absurdity of the exisitece of a God in this book. A really fantastic read that is brief enough to read in a day or two, but dense enough to reread later if a point is not entirely clear. One downer, is that Mr. Hitchens style of writing is rather unique and can be a little confusing at times. Buy this book.

[LSU]

In a strange twist, he's equally as adamant that the war in Iraq is completely justified.

[Jiddy78]

I'd read it, but I'm somewhat turned off by the "attention-catching, illogical whore of a title"....

How can something that does not exist be great or not great? Sadly, another poor attempt to sell books with shock value....I thought these guys were supposed to be smart? But no, the inner whore overwhelms them...Gotta sell some books and "GET MINE BABY"...

*thumbs down*

[Ed Who?]

The latest installment from Christopher Hitchens. Mr. Hitchens, along with Richard Dawkins, is one of the world's most famous atheist writers. Hitchens takes a wholistic approach in attacking organized religion, going after the social ills caused by religion, as well as the scientific absurdity of the exisitece of a God in this book. A really fantastic read that is brief enough to read in a day or two, but dense enough to reread later if a point is not entirely clear. One downer, is that Mr. Hitchens style of writing is rather unique and can be a little confusing at times. Buy this book.

If you'd like a read that's the opposing view, there's a book by Lee Strobel called "The Case For Christ." (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-1308240-3115242?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186239616&sr=8-2)

[Vegas]

If you'd like a read that's the opposing view, there's a book by Lee Strobel called "The Case For Christ." (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-1308240-3115242?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186239616&sr=8-2)

That is a great book. I highly recommend it.

[Tom Joad]

The latest installment from Christopher Hitchens. Mr. Hitchens, along with Richard Dawkins, is one of the world's most famous atheist writers. Hitchens takes a wholistic approach in attacking organized religion, going after the social ills caused by religion, as well as the scientific absurdity of the exisitece of a God in this book. A really fantastic read that is brief enough to read in a day or two, but dense enough to reread later if a point is not entirely clear. One downer, is that Mr. Hitchens style of writing is rather unique and can be a little confusing at times. Buy this book.

Sounds interesting.

[Hotpapa666]

I'd read it, but I'm somewhat turned off by the "attention-catching, illogical whore of a title"....

How can something that does not exist be great or not great? Sadly, another poor attempt to sell books with shock value....I thought these guys were supposed to be smart? But no, the inner whore overwhelms them...Gotta sell some books and "GET MINE BABY"...

*thumbs down*

A couple of things. First, I got the title wrong in my title. It should be "god is not GREAT." I think he is pointing out that the monotheist diety imagined/created by believers and their clergy is not great. Anyway, something that doesn't exisit is "NOT" everything. For example: Unicorns do not exist, Unicorns can not fly, Unicorns are not great... The title doesn't bother me, in an age where people are much more likely to sit down to several hours of cable TV rather than read a book you have to do something to get readers.

[ryr8828]

Denial of a supreme being is the height of arrogance.

[Jiddy78]

Denial of a supreme being is the height of arrogance.



That and showing up to a golf course without a collared shirt...:p

[Jiddy78]

Denial of a supreme being is the height of arrogance.

On a serious note, this post is a little open-ended so I guess I'll just reply to both my interpretations:

(1) If you mean that verbal/external denial to the public is arrogant, I would venture to ask why this is different than one who "spreads the word"...Are they both on arrogant footing?

(2) If you mean just not believing, I find this hard to agree with as arrogant, as I'd say that "finding God" is not a task that I would consider as "easy"...Or else everyone would...

[IBC]

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27996

[IBC]

Denial of a supreme being is the height of arrogance.

Believing you know exactly what god wants and are superior to others is the height of arrogance.

[Jiddy78]

Believing you know exactly what god wants and are superior to others is the height of arrogance.

Eh...Not shabby on a retort...but something along the lines of "Assuming you know what the height of arrogance is is probably the definition of the height of arrogance" would have been better.

Work out your logic bone this weekend in penance.

[IBC]

Eh...Not shabby on a retort...but something along the lines of "Assuming you know what the height of arrogance is is probably the definition of the height of arrogance" would have been better.

Work out your logic bone this weekend in penance.
Well played. A nice Sunday mornin' in Fla. Jiddy?

[Jiddy78]

Well played. A nice Sunday mornin' in Fla. Jiddy?

Just finished cuttin the grass a bit ago...Now taking wifey, the old man and my visiting uncle to the beach for a bit...Good times. Great day.

[IBC]

Just finished cuttin the grass a bit ago...Now taking wifey, the old man and my visiting uncle to the beach for a bit...Good times. Great day.

Nice man. I did a bit of yard work this mornin' also. Now time for a nap, followed by some playstation.

[ryr8828]

Believing you know exactly what god wants and are superior to others is the height of arrogance.

God speaks to the heart and through scripture. I don't recall saying I was superior to anyone else, I actually feel sorry for all the nonbelievers who will go to great lengths to try and convince people that God doesn't exist.

I wonder why they do that? What is their benefit? Money? Trying to make people as miserable as they are, or more miserable?

[IBC]

God speaks to the heart and through scripture. I don't recall saying I was superior to anyone else, I actually feel sorry for all the nonbelievers who will go to great lengths to try and convince people that God doesn't exist.I feel that what you are saying here shows a bit of the superiority you feel.

I wonder why they do that? What is their benefit? Money? Trying to make people as miserable as they are, or more miserable?

The benefit is truth.

[Tom Joad]

God speaks to the heart and through scripture. I don't recall saying I was superior to anyone else, I actually feel sorry for all the nonbelievers who will go to great lengths to try and convince people that God doesn't exist.

I wonder why they do that? What is their benefit? Money? Trying to make people as miserable as they are, or more miserable?

So, G-d tells people to murder?

[Iron Jaw]

On a serious note, this post is a little open-ended so I guess I'll just reply to both my interpretations:

(1) If you mean that verbal/external denial to the public is arrogant, I would venture to ask why this is different than one who "spreads the word"...Are they both on arrogant footing?
...

Paul was ordered to go out and spread the word, tend to the flock, open the eyes of prospective believers. The subsequent evangelists believed they were called upon from God to go out and spread the word - to seek new folks who could open up their hearts to God. Would you call this "arrogance," or sworn duty to the one believed to be the Almighty?

The athiest who attacks organized religion from all levels doesn't believe in a supreme being, thus, one wouldn't think he/she would believe there would be no punishment for sins in the afterlife. Without the believers, the vocal athiest doesn't have a soap box. The vocal athiest believes everyone should be an athiest - to "believe" like him/her, with little concern for those offended by the actions. Arrogance - Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the most well-known activist-athiest in my lifetime, wrote the book on arrogance.....and hatred.....disowning her own son William, because he became a born again Christian in 1980.

Now of course, there is definite arrogance amongst the so-called religious, holier than thou types who tell everyone else they're going to hell if they don't do this, do do that, etc. I presume that person would consider himself "rightous," which no mortal really can be. As Jesus said, Let him without sin cast the first stone.

[IBC]

Paul was ordered to go out and spread the word, tend to the flock, open the eyes of prospective believers. The subsequent evangelists believed they were called upon from God to go out and spread the word - to seek new folks who could open up their hearts to God. Would you call this "arrogance," or sworn duty to the one believed to be the Almighty?

The athiest who attacks organized religion from all levels doesn't believe in a supreme being, thus, one wouldn't think he/she would believe there would be no punishment for sins in the afterlife. Without the believers, the vocal athiest doesn't have a soap box. The vocal athiest believes everyone should be an athiest - to "believe" like him/her, with little concern for those offended by the actions. Arrogance - Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the most well-known activist-athiest in my lifetime, wrote the book on arrogance.....and hatred.....disowning her own son William, because he became a born again Christian in 1980.

Now of course, there is definite arrogance amongst the so-called religious, holier than thou types who tell everyone else they're going to hell if they don't do this, do do that, etc. I presume that person would consider himself "rightous," which no mortal really can be. As Jesus said, Let him without sin cast the first stone.

Jerry Falwell is representative of all Christians too.

[Hotpapa666]

I'll elaborate a little on the book. Not pretending to speak for Mr. Hutchins. Religion (all religion but Mr. Hutchins concentrates mainly on monotheist religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam in this book) has been responsible for many great offenses: wars, enslavement, sexual mutalation, mass deportations, represion of people based on race or gender,..., that are all very well documented throughout history (sometimes even in the tomes the religions hold as holy. Mr. Hutchins uses all of this historical information, as well as other information, to make the case that belief in god doesn't make sense, doesn't even jibe with it's only belief system. I understand that religious people would have a problem with this but they shouldn't allow that to get in the way of reading the book or allowing themselves to think about their religion in richer, more informed terms.

[Hotpapa666]

Denial of a supreme being is the height of arrogance.


I've heard this from believers before and it doesn't make any sense. Why is saying that my existence is result of the Big Bang, Billions of years cosmic evolution, water pooling on earth,...,life, evolution, my parents doing it arrogant? I accept that I am a miniscule part of a tiny planet in a small part of one of many galaxies. I think it's rather arrogant to think there is a an all-powerful being in heaven who created people and cares about their every move.

[rip]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Wpiac_K16A

^That guy makes me laugh for some reason.

[rip]

1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me

Does this mean that God/Jesus recognizes other gods? Just wondering what people thought of that Commandment. I saw that brought up somewhere and never really thought of it that way before.

[Ed Who?]

1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me

Does this mean that God/Jesus recognizes other gods? Just wondering what people thought of that Commandment. I saw that brought up somewhere and never really thought of it that way before.

When Moses came off Mount Sinai after receiving the laws for the Hebrews, what did he arrive to find? His brother Aaron and the people had begun worshipping the golden calf.

A god is anything we worship. It could be a tangible idol (such as the golden calf). Or, it could be a concept (like the pursuit of wealth or beauty).

[rip]

That is how I always understood it as well. I just thought it was a kind of weird argument when I saw it the other day by a couple atheists.

I think 90% of the internet is atheists now. Youtube and Digg are full of them. They are the types that give atheists a bad name. Anal-retentive assholes who like to argue about grammar.

My politician-type personality drops me in the middle (Agnostic). I don't believe in the Holy Books, but I can't definitively say there is nothing either. I agree with what both sides of you guys have said about being arrogant to believe for certain that their god is real, or that you don't have any doubt there are no gods. IF science is the measure of proof, than it cannot be proven there is no god. You can't just say it is "logical" to prove that belief to me. I look at the religious books as a guide to living, or philosophy, more than anything, but not proof there is a god. There is no possible way i can take any of that literally.

The Old Testament is fucked up to me. Cafeteria style religion for the majority of people I talk to. You can believe parts of it as true, but the other parts are not to be taken in a literal context. The story of Genesis is accepted as true, but many of the laws laid down in the OT, and then re-enforced by Jesus in the NT are not true if people don't agree with them anymore. They were just translated wrong right? lol

The more I think about atoms and the composition of matter I could say there is and always has been a form of re-incarnation. When we die, the atomic matter of our bodies flows back into the universe and repositions itself to any number of things. Live, or dead. That doesn't explain the "soul" though right? IT is entirely possible that our atomic make up was once a part of another human at some point in time. Prayer to me is the conscious focus of atomic energy by many towards the atomic matter of a particular object (human) that flows positive energy in that direction. Mass consciousness I think is a possibility when focused.

I believe in evolution. Can't understand why anyone wouldn't with the evidence they can literally see. The story of creation is about as believable as someone telling me they can fly by flapping their arms.

[rip]

lol...I watched Flecth Lives yesterday. That movie is great in how they protrayed evangelists.

[LSU]

When Moses came off Mount Sinai after receiving the laws for the Hebrews, what did he arrive to find? His brother Aaron and the people had begun worshipping the golden calf.

A god is anything we worship. It could be a tangible idol (such as the golden calf). Or, it could be a concept (like the pursuit of wealth or beauty).


Would this include any particular ritual that people do and believe it makes them more...spiritual, let's say...than a group that does something a bit different?

We had a sermon a couple weeks ago where the pastor talked about this sort of thing and referenced the golden calf...

Likened it to denominations complaining about other denominations not doing things right...like some people think it's evil to have wine in church, or that grape juice (instead of wine) isn't how communion should be, or this and that.

Basically said, that's not what you worship, that's not what gets you closer to God...

Thoughts?

[Reagan Smash]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I believe in God, and it's not from any book. When I go outside, and feel the sunshine on my face, or the breeze in the air, I just can't fathom that's it's all a bunch of random atoms and scientific formulas that developed such greatness. I just can't believe that the human body came about like a roll of the cosmic dice. That doesn't mean I believe in all religion is used for, and how people interpret it, but I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because I think most of the Bible is at least an exaggeration and a most a largely book of fiction, doesn't mean I don't believe in God. I think that too many people today want to throw away God because they see the hypocrisies of organized religion, where in fact, it should make them feel stronger, because it forces them to find a much more personal relationship with God. I don't know, I could be wrong, but this is my opinion.

[IBC]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I believe in God, and it's not from any book. When I go outside, and feel the sunshine on my face, or the breeze in the air, I just can't fathom that's it's all a bunch of random atoms and scientific formulas that developed such greatness. I just can't believe that the human body came about like a roll of the cosmic dice. That doesn't mean I believe in all religion is used for, and how people interpret it, but I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because I think most of the Bible is at least an exaggeration and a most a largely book of fiction, doesn't mean I don't believe in God. I think that too many people today want to throw away God because they see the hypocrisies of organized religion, where in fact, it should make them feel stronger, because it forces them to find a much more personal relationship with God. I don't know, I could be wrong, but this is my opinion.

Evolution? Do you believe in that? This sounds like how McCain answered that question.

[Reagan Smash]

Evolution? Do you believe in that? This sounds like how McCain answered that question.

Yes I do. I believe in God and Evolution at the same time. I don't know how they became exclusive of one another.

[Hotpapa666]

Yes I do. I believe in God and Evolution at the same time. I don't know how they became exclusive of one another.

I will say, perhaps for the first time here, and perhaps regretably, that they aren't exclusive of one another. However, the possibilty that one of the religions on Earth got the story right is no more probable than random.

[LSU]

I will say, perhaps for the first time here, and perhaps regretably, that they aren't exclusive of one another. However, the possibilty that one of the religions on Earth got the story right is no more probable than random.


There shouldn't be anything to regret.

The fact or fiction of God's existence does not prove the fact or fiction of evolution.


Believing God's existence does not directly lead to believing what is stated in Genesis.


Of course, your last statement is kind of ironic. Considering, according to evolution, the formation of life was a random event.


And when you really break it down, the probability that something could have happened that actually did happen is 1.0.


You could, right now, run a statistical analysis on the probability that sometime along the way, I would write a post with these exact letters, exact words in this order, these exact spelling and or grammatical errors, at this exact time of day, on this exact board, with this exact number of people present. And that probability would likely be astronomical that all those things would happen.

But once it has happened, those astronomical odds disappear. It happened.

[Hotpapa666]

I think my last post was confusing. What I meant to say was that the chances of any religion getting their description of a god, should one exsist, are no greater than random.

[LSU]

I think my last post was confusing. What I meant to say was that the chances of any religion getting their description of a god, should one exsist, are no greater than random.



What do you mean by description?

[Hotpapa666]

What do you mean by description?

Greek mythology, The Koran, The Talmut, Shinto, Hinduism, etc., all have descriptions of their gods, what he wants, how he acts, what he does and did, etc.. That kind of stuff is what I mean by description.

[LSU]

Greek mythology, The Koran, The Talmut, Shinto, Hinduism, etc., all have descriptions of their gods, what he wants, how he acts, what he does and did, etc.. That kind of stuff is what I mean by description.



Gotcha.

[Hotpapa666]

I think my last post was confusing. What I meant to say was that the chances of any religion getting their description of a god, should one exsist, correct are no greater than random.

Another confusing post. The bold word should have been included. I didn't sleep well last night...

[skeptic griggsy]

:) I consider that theists just have the mere feeling that some super mind is behind and beyond the universe to account for matters.This mere feeling is like seeing Yeshua in a tortilla or Allah in an explosion- pareidolia- like seeing the man in the moon. This mere feeling also lies behind the religious wanting to overcome dread and find a divine purpose for their lives.as theistc evollutinist, Francisco Lose Ayala avers. :rolleyes: At best, this mere feeling is a replaceable placebo and at worse, warrant for terrorism and war.This mere feeling for divine help, is as the recently died Albert Ellis would have stated, "mustabatory," a want, not a need. Divine purpose for us and divine love and a future state are illusions of what Freud called the universal neurosis. Our own purposes, human love and this one life suffice.As a fallibililist, I don't expect anyone to jump on the atheist bandwagon! :cool:

[skeptic griggsy]

Sorry for the typos. Francisco Jose Ayala evolutionist :) Hotpapa66, you knock down the probability argument effectively. It and other design arguments beg the question,by assuming some divine mind had us in mind.Natural selection did not have us in mind as you would point out with your illustration of writing your post.:cool:

[Hotpapa666]

Skeptic,

Welcome aboard. I look forward to your insite.

[KinjaKahn]

Skeptic,

Welcome aboard. I look forward to your insite.

You know hotpapa666, for someone so desperate to eliminate God from your sphere, you sure spend a lot of time keeping him in your sphere.

I would have zero problem with religion if it stayed in its sphere and out of mine.

[Hotpapa666]

You know hotpapa666, for someone so desperate to eliminate God from your sphere, you sure spend a lot of time keeping him in your sphere.

First, I am not desperate to do anything. Second, please, please, please, don't use that rediculous argument. It makes you look foolish and desperate.

[KinjaKahn]

First, I am not desperate to do anything. Second, please, please, please, don't use that rediculous argument. It makes you look foolish and desperate.
You claimed to not have a problem with religion as long as its in its place and not yours. Yet you started this thread. Smell that?

[Hotpapa666]

You claimed to not have a problem with religion as long as its in its place and not yours. Yet you started this thread. Smell that?

So I can't come on here and express my opinion without being some kind of hypocrite in your mind? Nice try, but that doesn't fly.

Religion has been a temendous source of misery, misinformation, persecution, torture, murder,..., for millenia. When they cease such activities, they cease to be in my sphere. Get it?

[KinjaKahn]

So I can't come on here and express my opinion without being some kind of hypocrite in your mind? Nice try, but that doesn't fly.

Religion has been a temendous source of misery, misinformation, persecution, torture, murder,..., for millenia. When they cease such activities, they cease to be in my sphere. Get it?

Can I ask what the significance of the 666 following your name is to you?

[Hotpapa666]

Can I ask what the significance of the 666 following your name is to you?

It is a carry over from years ago when I posted on another board; just "Hotpapa" was taken and I needed an easy way to remember my log-in. I used the same name to post on Sportsboards so that people would recognize me. I thought about changing it but, I never got around to it. It has no significance what-so-ever.

[swordfish]

*raise hand*

I know what it means. It's real cute too :)

But I will have to give him credit, at least he is honest.