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Nixon's Head
07-18-2007, 04:51 PM
Here you go Vegas...

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188

Personally I think this falls into the whole left-written article versus right-written article. I'm sure lefty writer could come up with a counter article.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 04:54 PM
The battery replacement cost & disposal alone makes the hybrids very questionable as far as viability and eco friendly.

Nixon's Head
07-18-2007, 04:56 PM
The battery replacement cost & disposal alone makes the hybrids very questionable as far as viability and eco friendly.If it makes you feel better I wouldn't buy one. I am waiting for the car that runs on water that Hyde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Hyde) is always talking about.

LSU
07-18-2007, 04:56 PM
The battery replacement cost & disposal alone makes the hybrids very questionable as far as viability and eco friendly.


That, weighed against battery life and/or ability to reuse

pnkpanther
07-18-2007, 04:58 PM
the aveo, our new flagship

Vegas
07-18-2007, 05:01 PM
That, weighed against battery life and/or ability to reuse

I had a ride in a Prius a couple of weeks ago. The owner was telling me how the gas mileage falls in the toilet when you run the AC and in hot weather in general. The battery pack needs to be environmentally controlled as it's not efficient in hot weather. I don't see how it's worth it at all here as the AC and battery cooling need to be run pretty much all year.

LSU
07-18-2007, 05:04 PM
I had a ride in a Prius a couple of weeks ago. The owner was telling me how the gas mileage falls in the toilet when you run the AC and in hot weather in general. The battery pack needs to be environmentally controlled as it's not efficient in hot weather. I don't see how it's worth it at all here as the AC and battery cooling need to be run pretty much all year.


There are a few profs that have them here, but I haven't really talked to them much about them. I got a ride home in one one time, and at that time, the owner really really liked it...she hadn't had it that long, though, so I don't know if that's still the case or not.

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 05:05 PM
They produce much more smug than any other auto.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 05:06 PM
They produce much more smug than any other auto.

Except maybe a Hybrid Highlander.

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 05:07 PM
Except maybe a Hybrid Highlander.

Perhaps us eco friendly types should go out beating Prius's with bats and knifing their tires.

pnkpanther
07-18-2007, 05:08 PM
Perhaps us eco friendly types should go out beating Prius's with bats and knifing their tires.

isnt their plastic dent resistant?

Vegas
07-18-2007, 05:09 PM
Perhaps us eco friendly types should go out beating Prius's with bats and knifing their tires.

Good idea. We should buy some Hummers to transport ourselves for the occasion.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 05:09 PM
isnt their plastic dent resistant?

We'll get bigger hammers.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 05:18 PM
I had a ride in a Prius a couple of weeks ago. The owner was telling me how the gas mileage falls in the toilet when you run the AC and in hot weather in general. The battery pack needs to be environmentally controlled as it's not efficient in hot weather. I don't see how it's worth it at all here as the AC and battery cooling need to be run pretty much all year.

Really? We get 51 mpg most tanks down here.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 05:26 PM
Really? We get 51 mpg most tanks down here.

During hot weather? This guy told me he was getting around 40 when it gets over 100.

LSU
07-18-2007, 05:28 PM
During hot weather? This guy told me he was getting around 40 when it gets over 100.



Think that has anything to do with expansion of liquid at high temps?

Tom Joad
07-18-2007, 05:41 PM
During hot weather? This guy told me he was getting around 40 when it gets over 100.

40 is still pretty good when most cars only get in the 20s.

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 05:42 PM
40 is still pretty good when most cars only get in the 20s.

All hail the prius and worship it's smugness.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 05:49 PM
40 is still pretty good when most cars only get in the 20s.

It wouldn't be difficult to make a similar powered car at the same weight that gets 40 mpg that is powered by an IC engine only.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 05:51 PM
Think that has anything to do with expansion of liquid at high temps?

I quite certain it's due to the higher internal resistance of the batteries at high temperatures, but haven't looked into or even thought about what causes the higher resistance. It could be the expansion of liquids.

LSU
07-18-2007, 05:54 PM
I quite certain it's due to the higher internal resistance of the batteries at high temperatures, but haven't looked into or even thought about what causes the higher resistance. It could be the expansion of liquids.



I notice a small change in fuel economy in the Civic in the summer as opposed to winter, but I'm also running the AC more...

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 06:06 PM
I think fuel atomizes better in cooler weather, I think motors make more horsepower in cooler weather.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:08 PM
I think fuel atomizes better in cooler weather, I think motors make more horsepower in cooler weather.

True on both statements.

But the differences in cold weather to hot weather are less than the extra load you put on the engine by running the AC.

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 06:11 PM
Air conditioners run more than most people realize. Put on the defrost in the winter, your ac is on. I have to run the defrost quite a bit in winter around here.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:13 PM
It wouldn't be difficult to make a similar powered car at the same weight that gets 40 mpg that is powered by an IC engine only.

And I should add that if an automaker made a similar powered car at the same weight that it wouldn't sell worth a darn.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:21 PM
During hot weather? This guy told me he was getting around 40 when it gets over 100.

Just opened it up and turned it on...51.4 mpg over the last 250 miles (half tank)....It's been high 90s all week and we took the m-i-l back to palm beach in it saturday (100 miles roundtrip)...

Maybe he should think about getting a mustang with that lead foot....

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:22 PM
Just opened it up and turned it on...51.4 mpg over the last 250 miles (half tank)....It's been high 90s all week and we took the m-i-l back to palm beach in it saturday (100 miles roundtrip)...

Maybe he should think about getting a mustang with that lead foot....

You may have unlocked the mystery there. He drives with one pedal on the floor all the time. Guy scares the crap out of me.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:23 PM
BTW Vegas, you can go ahead and give props to the interior room now...Even if you don't like the car...

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:24 PM
BTW Vegas, you can go ahead and give props to the interior room now...Even if you don't like the car...

It was comfortable in the front seat. I didn't even look at the back.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:26 PM
It was comfortable in the front seat. I didn't even look at the back.


Comfortable? Really? I don't like the seats...Of course, we don't have leather in the prius...and I have it in the stang and did in the sebring...So I'm spoiled...But still...Too upright and the cloth handrests was a f*cking stupid idea.

Tom Joad
07-18-2007, 06:26 PM
It wouldn't be difficult to make a similar powered car at the same weight that gets 40 mpg that is powered by an IC engine only.

And, are there many around?

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:27 PM
Comfortable? Really? I don't like the seats...Of course, we don't have leather in the prius...and I have it in the stang and did in the sebring...So I'm spoiled...But still...Too upright and the cloth handrests was a f*cking stupid idea.

I meant comfortable as far as space goes as that's what you first mentioned. I didn't care about the seats a bit, though.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:27 PM
And, are there many around?

No, because people aren't interested in light, underpowered cars. People like the hybrids for the smug factor.

Tom Joad
07-18-2007, 06:29 PM
No, because people aren't interested in light, underpowered cars. People like the hybrids for the smug factor.

If cars were made that got good gas mileage, at least a segment of the population would buy them. I know I'd be one of them.

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 06:30 PM
If cars were made that got good gas mileage, at least a segment of the population would buy them. I know I'd be one of them.

Then why aren't you driving one?

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:33 PM
No, because people aren't interested in light, underpowered cars. People like the hybrids for the smug factor.

As compared to buying a car for the snob factor???

Tom Joad
07-18-2007, 06:34 PM
Then why aren't you driving one?

Because I haven't been able to afford one, yet. In December, I'll get a pay raise and then I should be able to. I've never owned a new car.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:34 PM
As compared to buying a car for the snob factor???

The snob factor is alive and well. I don't dispute that a bit.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:34 PM
Then why aren't you driving one?

Says the guy whose like "Jiddy I want a Mustang and new truck (forget kind) loaded with heated seats" and is still rolling in a whack ass pickup truck....Why aren't you driving them?

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 06:35 PM
Because I haven't been able to afford one, yet. In December, I'll get a pay raise and then I should be able to. I've never owned a new car.

My son sold a diesel Rabbit he got 50 mpg out of for less than a hundred dollars.

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 06:36 PM
Says the guy whose like "Jiddy I want a Mustang and new truck (forget kind) loaded with heated seats" and is still rolling in a whack ass pickup truck....Why aren't you driving them?

I never said I would. I could give a damn about 50 mpg. I want room, power, and huge shinyness.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:36 PM
My son sold a diesel Rabbit he got 50 mpg out of for less than a hundred dollars.

The whores at the local Toyota dealer were damn near asking msrp for used priuses when we bought one...and fools were paying it...

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:36 PM
I never said I would. I could give a damn about 50 mpg. I want room, power, and huge shinyness.

And heavy for safety.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:37 PM
I never said I would. I could give a damn about 50 mpg. I want room, power, and huge shinyness.

Succumb to you inner babylonian.

Tom Joad
07-18-2007, 06:38 PM
My son sold a diesel Rabbit he got 50 mpg out of for less than a hundred dollars.

I've never even heard of that car. After I got laid off from the Army, my Mercury Mystique broke down and I couldn't afford to have it fixed (nor was it worth fixing). My Dad sold me my current car (a 2001 Ford Taurus) on the cheap and he bought a new car. Someday, soon, I'll be able to buy a car and it'll get good gas mileage and, hopefully, not be environmentally unfriendly.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:38 PM
And heavy for safety.

The mustang is exceptionally light...American muscle car trickery.

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 06:38 PM
And heavy for safety.

Yes. And high off the ground so small cars miss my bumper and hit the skid plates.

Vegas
07-18-2007, 06:39 PM
The mustang is exceptionally light...American muscle car trickery.

That's for power to weight ratio and to help Ford meet the CAFE standards. And it's especially for the people who don't buy the V8.

Tom Joad
07-18-2007, 06:39 PM
I never said I would. I could give a damn about 50 mpg. I want room, power, and huge shinyness.

I want none of those...actually, I don't really need any of those.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:40 PM
I've never even heard of that car. After I got laid off from the Army, my Mercury Mystique broke down and I couldn't afford to have it fixed (nor was it worth fixing). My Dad sold me my current car (a 2001 Ford Taurus) on the cheap and he bought a new car. Someday, soon, I'll be able to buy a car and it'll get good gas mileage and, hopefully, not be environmentally unfriendly.

Moral of this post:

ryr = snob.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 06:44 PM
That's for power to weight ratio and to help Ford meet the CAFE standards. And it's especially for the people who don't buy the V8.

LMAO...Actually the v6 is only 4 pounds lighter than the GT

ryr8828
07-18-2007, 07:10 PM
Moral of this post:

ryr = snob.

Because I've heard of a VW Rabbit?

Vegas
07-18-2007, 07:33 PM
Because I've heard of a VW Rabbit?

I was also wondering what he meant by that.

Jiddy78
07-18-2007, 09:12 PM
Then why aren't you driving one?

Snob-enabling post. Better?