Evil: Nature or Nurture?

[Tom Joad]

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3359185&page=1

Evil: Nature or Nurture?
Convicted Killer Refuses to Apologize for Brutal Murders; Was He Born Evil?
By ROB WALLACE
July 10, 2007 —


Are evil people born or made?

Ulysses Handy was 24 when he walked into a friend's home in Tacoma, Wash., looking to steal money he knew was there.

He shot Darren Christian and Daniel Varo at point-blank range, and then turned his gun on a total stranger, unarmed and defenseless 21-year-old Lindy Cochran. When questioned about her reaction and asked whether she had begged for her life, Handy said, "She didn't say a damn word. She was shellshocked."

He explained that her terror didn't set him back at all.

He continued, "I feel there are two kinds of people in the world  us and them. Predator and prey. Well, I'm damn sure not no prey."


No Remorse
Handy was arrested and pleaded guilty. At his sentencing, he spoke to the victims' families. "I know there's people here hurt. Yeah, well, pain is a part of life. Deal with it. Get over it."

According to Handy, he felt no compassion for the family members of his victims. "Man, there ain't nothing I could say could take away their pain or make it a little easier to deal with. They gone and they ain't coming back, " he said.

Cochran's great-uncle Richard Frost expressed his feelings toward Handy in the courtroom at the sentencing. "The part that can keep me going the rest of my life is the hope that somebody on the inside will get their hands on him and choke the life out of him while he's whimpering like the coward he is."

For Frost, knowing that Handy would spend his life in prison was not enough  it did not offer him any satisfaction.

By pleading guilty, Handy avoided death row. He is almost a year into three consecutive life sentences, and he has spent some of that time covering himself in jailhouse tattoos  a pentagram, the word "sadistic" and the number 666 on his chest, with devil horns above his eyes.


Becoming a Killer
"I wonder what is it that drives him to feel that he needs to advertise that he's a sadist to everyone around him," said forensic psychiatrist Michael Welner, the developer of the Depravity Scale.

The defiance of the hardened persona could be one of three things. "You're dealing with illness, brute contempt for others or bravado," Welner said. "I would have every reason to believe that he's terrified, because when you take his gun away, how scary is he?"

Handy was not scary at all as a child. He was raised by a loving and devout single mother in New Orleans.

"I went to Catholic schools all my life. And I was an honor student, Boy Scouts, all that. The choir  I went to catechism, first communion and after a while, that wasn't me. It didn't give me pleasure," he said.

Handy explained that he felt lonely and misunderstood as a child, feelings he says contributed to his violent behavior as he grew up.

"Something just never felt quite right to me  this internal pain  and I always felt that no one else feels my pain. But I can give you a small taste of it … a small taste. If I hurt you … that pain you feel … can't compare to mine. And I am not alone anymore."


Payback After Death?
So, what happens to Handy when he dies? The church he rejected believes that he is destined for hell, unless he calls out to God for forgiveness. And if he does, Catholics say he will do time in purgatory before he gets to heaven.

Monsignor Jim Lisante from the Roman Catholic Church in New York said of purgatory, "It's a place of atonement, and it means you are paying back in some way. I have to believe that means that it's not a pleasant experience. You are forgiven but you gotta pay."

Eastern religions also believe in a temporary hell where Handy would "burn off" bad karma before reincarnation.

Jews don't give much definition to the afterworld, but Muslims are quite specific. Someone like Handy will drink molten copper in the pits of Jehennem.

But, for evangelical Christians, justice in hell can be avoided altogether with one simple prayer.

The Rev. Tom Brown, an evangelical pastor from the Word of Life Church, says that for a person who has "lived a wicked life, but if he turns to God and says, 'Lord, I am sorry,' and he truly repents, God will not remember his past wickedness, but only his present righteousness."

For a grieving relative, this notion can be hard to accept. Regarding the pain Handy's act has added to his life, Frost said, "If there's a hell, he's going there. And you hear people talking about demons on Earth, guardian angels  if there are demons, he's one of them."

And if he were to have a jailhouse conversion? Frost said, "It would matter somewhat. It would matter somewhat."

Handy's mother has said she wants, more than anything else, for him to have a change of heart and apologize to the families of the people he killed.

Handy's response was unapologetic. "Look, man, like I said before, if I was gonna be sorry for what I was gonna do, I wouldn't have did it in the first place."

He also has little concern for his soul. "If I go to hell, then so be it. Then so be it."


Copyright © 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures

[LSU]

made. but nature doesn't not help the cause.

[Hotpapa666]

I just listened to a pod-cast, This American Life, which can be found at Thisamericanlife.org which spoke a little bit to this issue. I encourage everyone to listen. But, as research progresses, it seems like big moral issues, like killing people, are probably deeply biological. Listen to show, the part I'm talking about is the second "act" and takes about 10 minutes. It is followed by a story on civilians in Iraq that is equally fasinating. The podcast is called "Who can you save?".

[Cat in the Hat]

made. but nature doesn't not help the cause.

I think there are some folks who are born inherently evil. You have some kids who grow up in a loving nurturing family who are just as evil as can be. These are the kids who mutilate furry little woodland creatures they catch and graduate continuously to larger and larger animals. First it starts out with that little bird or gopher, then it graduates to rabbits and cats and others. These are the kids who will hurt you meticulously (sp?) and not like a bully with a punch to the gut or something like that. They go after you while you're going down the steps and stick a leg out or give you that non-challant shove when you pass by. Yeah, I think evil is inherent in some folks.

On the other hand I feel there are folks who become evil based on the environment they've come up in. Look at some of these extremist groups like the Arian Brotherhood and the Black Panthers who are driven by such charged hate. The ideas they put into their members' head turn these folks into evil people.

I'm not sure where folks like Stalin, Hitler, and Milosevic fit in. I think they were all inherently evil. All with varying degrees of megalomania I believe. Very grandiose plans with the intended destruction of particular groups of folks or just mass murder in general.

[LSU]

All children are from God, right? Or not?

Would God view evil as imperfection?

If so, would God create an imperfect (evil) child?

This probably only applies if you believe in God...and even then, it may not apply.

[Tom Joad]

All children are from God, right? Or not?

Would God view evil as imperfection?

If so, would God create an imperfect (evil) child?
This probably only applies if you believe in God...and even then, it may not apply.

That brings up a larger question about whether or not G-d takes an active role in the lives of human or if "He" just started it all (like pushing over the first domino and letting it go from there)?

[swordfish]

Inherently there can be no good without evil, and no greater good without greater evil. People do not just turn this way over night and who knows what was really going on in the home. As for God, he is no ones baby sitter. Not even children.

[LSU]

That brings up a larger question about whether or not G-d takes an active role in the lives of human or if "He" just started it all (like pushing over the first domino and letting it go from there)?


Free will. But does a child have free will before it is made (assuming of course, God creates everything).

Or does the child's spirit decide prior to conception, or between conception and birth, if it will be evil?


If there's a predisposition to being evil, God would have needed to "create" it, no?

[LSU]

Inherently there can be no good without evil, and no greater good without greater evil. People do not just turn this way over night and who knows what was really going on in the home. As for God, he is no ones baby sitter. Not even children.



Not talking about free will. Born evil implies that's the way the child was made, not what the child became.

[Cat in the Hat]

All children are from God, right? Or not?

Would God view evil as imperfection?

If so, would God create an imperfect (evil) child?

This probably only applies if you believe in God...and even then, it may not apply.


From what I gather the belief in God is purely a matter of faith in God's existence. God is the most abstract concept when it comes to thinking from a materialistic sense. In that fashion, God is ineffable. God cannot be described. From a purely theological/theoretical standpoint God can only be described as possessing a certain collection of qualities or virtues or characteristics of being. They include, but are not limited to; omnipotence, omniscience, and the quality of being perfect or without flaw. In either sense, there is no real concept of the being of God. It is mentioned that God created us in God's own image. That leads most folks to believe God would naturally take the form of a human or some life form of similar build and appearance.

In the case of whether God views evil as being imperfect or not may not need to be proved. In the OT there is a story written about the angel rebellion led by Lucifer. Ultimately, Lucifer and Lucifer's followers were smitten down by God's own self. Thus, the creation of Hell and a division between good and evil as a distinction of that which embodies good things and that which embodies bad things. It is widely believed that there are spirits all around this world, whose only purpose is to make what is good into that which is bad. These are all demons and dark angels sent from Hell by Lucifer to continue to fight God and bring down human kind. Now, think of this...if all who were in Heaven the Kingdom of God were/are good, would it not make sense to argue that Lucifer and his followers are actually good? The only twist to this is that angels are not considered to be perfect only immortal and in the service to God.

However, we talk about the existence of perfectly good things as perfectly evil things. These things are purely good or evil and flawless as such. What I mean by this is there are either absolutely no evil or good tendancies or characteristics embodied within this being. If folks believe God has created everything, then God has created evil in the process. We must remember God only created us in God's image. That doesn't mean God intended for us to be perfect or without any perceivable flaw. I would have to argue God did create that which embodies the ideas of evil to let folks know what it takes to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

[LSU]

From what I gather the belief in God is purely a matter of faith in God's existence. God is the most abstract concept when it comes to thinking from a materialistic sense. In that fashion, God is ineffable. God cannot be described. From a purely theological/theoretical standpoint God can only be described as possessing a certain collection of qualities or virtues or characteristics of being. They include, but are not limited to; omnipotence, omniscience, and the quality of being perfect or without flaw. In either sense, there is no real concept of the being of God. It is mentioned that God created us in God's own image. That leads most folks to believe God would naturally take the form of a human or some life form of similar build and appearance.

In the case of whether God views evil as being imperfect or not may not need to be proved. In the OT there is a story written about the angel rebellion led by Lucifer. Ultimately, Lucifer and Lucifer's followers were smitten down by God's own self. Thus, the creation of Hell and a division between good and evil as a distinction of that which embodies good things and that which embodies bad things. It is widely believed that there are spirits all around this world, whose only purpose is to make what is good into that which is bad. These are all demons and dark angels sent from Hell by Lucifer to continue to fight God and bring down human kind. Now, think of this...if all who were in Heaven the Kingdom of God were/are good, would it not make sense to argue that Lucifer and his followers are actually good? The only twist to this is that angels are not considered to be perfect only immortal and in the service to God.

However, we talk about the existence of perfectly good things as perfectly evil things. These things are purely good or evil and flawless as such. What I mean by this is there are either absolutely no evil or good tendancies or characteristics embodied within this being. If folks believe God has created everything, then God has created evil in the process. We must remember God only created us in God's image. That doesn't mean God intended for us to be perfect or without any perceivable flaw. I would have to argue God did create that which embodies the ideas of evil to let folks know what it takes to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.



That still gets into free will, which God gave us. Whether or not he gave it to angels, I don't know. But he gave it to us...so we can choose to be good or evil, thus Man, in a way, could've been the one to "create" evil, or evil deeds, at least. But that doesn't mean Man is inherently evil. Does man have a choice to be evil? If so, then man is not born evil, but becomes evil. If Man can be born evil, and it is inherent, then it is a creation of God within the spirit and/or genetics of Man to be evil.

Man's ability to "realize" anything, including evil, is a result of evil itself...temptation. You know, the serpent and Eve and Adam and such. The fruit. Adam and Eve didn't know anything until they ate the fruit. So, your last part does make sense following that story in the Bible. But God didn't make the serpent tell Eve to eat the fruit, it was her choice to...free will. Did God create Eve so as to unleash evil into the world? Or was it her choice?

And that's the question we're at...are people created evil, or do they become evil?

Unless you believe evolution, then all this is moot. But still fun to think about...but in a different way.

So, if we take God out of this picture, the question is, is there a gene, set of genes, or a particular genetic makeup that cause "evil"? The "nature" part of the argument...or is it something that is acquired after birth for whatever reasons...or something that develops after birth (which sheds a whole new light on "born" or "became" in terms of genetics...maybe not coming out of the womb evil, but with the right deck of cards)...

My, the possibilities.


That's why I stick with my original answer of "made" evil, but contributed to by particular traits.

It's the easy out. But there are still a lot of questions (see above) tumbling through my oversized noggin.

[Cat in the Hat]

Unless you believe evolution, then all this is moot. But still fun to think about...but in a different way.

So, if we take God out of this picture, the question is, is there a gene, set of genes, or a particular genetic makeup that cause "evil"? The "nature" part of the argument...or is it something that is acquired after birth for whatever reasons...or something that develops after birth (which sheds a whole new light on "born" or "became" in terms of genetics...maybe not coming out of the womb evil, but with the right deck of cards)...

My, the possibilities.


That's why I stick with my original answer of "made" evil, but contributed to by particular traits.

It's the easy out. But there are still a lot of questions (see above) tumbling through my oversized noggin.

I guess, I'd have to say I subscribe to both doctorines so-to-speak. I believe in a spiritual side which keeps the world in some sort of balance and the scientific side which is the series of dominoes still making its pattern (I think you mentioned the dominoes thing LSU) and moving forward.

To me the stories in the bible are spiritual and a less plausible explanation for the occurrences of many world changing events. We must think about almost all of the books in the new and old testaments. These were all written for the most part during the reign of the Roman Empire (or at least while there was some sort of multi-theistic society in domination), which was still for the most part a totally Pagan society. They too had their fantastic stories of miracles and violence, etc. This was just a way to put forth what they thought was a plausible explanation for natural phenomenon, which occurred once every eleventh blue moon as well as the changing of the seasons, etc. Taking that into consideration, the Christians needed some pretty cool superhero tales of its own to start converting folks from Paganism to Christianity. Instead of several Gods as in Paganism, there is only one God and millions of lesser deities (angels) who perform some miracles as well as a bunch of humans on Earth who were chosen by God to do a bunch of really cool things to help bail mankind out every once in a while. Of course the ideas of Heaven and Hell must have been pretty interesting to a lot of folks at that time as there was just the Underworld for them. There wasn't a whole lot to distinguish between the good folks and the bad folks when they died.

Now if we switch back to the scientific side of it for a moment, you talk about genetics and how a child is born with a certain set of genetic characteristics handed down ultimately by the mother and father based on what each of them has. We all know there are dominant and recessive genes. We also know there are mutations to genes. As you mentioned, we still can't isolate all the particular genes in the human make up and I'm pretty certain we still can't figure out exactly what causes a mutation to occur. That being said, I think it's not a bad argument platform to take in saying that evil can be inherent in a person based on subtle mutations and chemical makeups of the genetic structure and the brain. I would go as far as to say that this mutation is not something that will cause the child to be much like a Downs child or one with Cerebral Palsie, etc. This mutation would be so subtle that it doesn't effect the physical appearance of the child, only the nature of his/her actions and thoughts. However, that evil is not necessarily recognized as evil by the person who is evil. They believe it to be normal and the lessons they learn over time based on their thought process only make their logic more plausible to them.

In the end, I don't think it matters which stance you take. There are too many factors and interpretations holding back any possible true explanation. To figure this out, we'd have to spend a millenium of Sundays trying to sort through everything and toss out that which doesn't contribute to the explanation.

[LSU]

I'm pretty certain we still can't figure out exactly what causes a mutation to occur.


Many things. Even randomness.

[Tom Joad]

Free will. But does a child have free will before it is made (assuming of course, God creates everything).

Or does the child's spirit decide prior to conception, or between conception and birth, if it will be evil?


If there's a predisposition to being evil, God would have needed to "create" it, no?

That brings up the ultimate un-answerable philosophical question:

Evil exists. <--We can agree on this.
Does evil exist because G-d created it or is it separate from G-d?
If G-d created evil then "He" is not omni-benevolent (all good).
If G-d did not create evil then "He" is not omnipotent (since "He" could not control the introduction of evil into the world).

[LSU]

That brings up the ultimate un-answerable philosophical question:

Evil exists. <--We can agree on this.
Does evil exist because G-d created it or is it separate from G-d?
If G-d created evil then "He" is not omni-benevolent (all good).
If G-d did not create evil then "He" is not omnipotent (since "He" could not control the introduction of evil into the world).



Exactly, and the unanswerable questions are the most fun to talk about.

[Tom Joad]

Exactly, and the unanswerable questions are the most fun to talk about.

I remember sitting in a McDonald's in college arguing that question with my friend who is now studying to be a Presbyterian minister. It was good times.

[LSU]

I remember sitting in a McDonald's in college arguing that question with my friend who is now studying to be a Presbyterian minister. It was good times.



I wish I could go back and take my Philosophy 101 class...as an 18 year old freshman, my mind just wasn't quite ready for that level of thinking...come to think of it, I was 19...just barely.

[Cat in the Hat]

I wish I could go back and take my Philosophy 101 class...as an 18 year old freshman, my mind just wasn't quite ready for that level of thinking...come to think of it, I was 19...just barely.

While studying at UW-Madison, I took a philosophy of religion course and I tell you it raised more questions about religion and the Christian faith than ever before.

My ultimate stance at this time is: I believe there is a God or at least a higher power, which we will never understand until it is our time to join God. I don't believe in the Holy Bible as a literal book of rules and policies in which I must live by. I believe in the Holy Bible as a book to guide me in my life's journey. I use it to be a good person and to help others. I don't necessarily believe outright that Jesus died for my sins or that he is my savior. I believe in doing the best I can to be a good person and survive the best I can. I am also a firm believer things happen for a reason no matter how good or bad they may seem.

That's what I carry forth to this day from that class and will hold it as such until I find a reason to change it.

[Emmanuel]

That brings up the ultimate un-answerable philosophical question:

Evil exists. <--We can agree on this.
Does evil exist because G-d created it or is it separate from G-d?
If G-d created evil then "He" is not omni-benevolent (all good).
If G-d did not create evil then "He" is not omnipotent (since "He" could not control the introduction of evil into the world).
Only ultimate and unanswerable under the assumption there is a God.

But assuming there is, what is evil? Just another concept/creation invented by man?

[Cat in the Hat]

Only ultimate and unanswerable under the assumption there is a God.

But assuming there is, what is evil? Just another concept/creation invented by man?

The thing is no matter what kind of logic one puts forth in this matter, there is no way to prove the existence of God. There is no proof God exists. The existence of God is purely based on faith alone. You can only believe God exists in one form or another, thus the many forms of monotheistic religion. In addition to that, it also must be faith alone to believe God is omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent, and perfect.

To address your second statement based on the concept of Free Will brought up by many in this thread, man is considered to be independent of God if God gave man free will. If that is the case, evil must be a creation of man in a way to justify or condemn actions by man. Considering man is the only true intelligent life form on the planet (however I think the more we learn about other animals we find intelligence is becoming more and more relative) we have learned much about our world and ourselves. We have also learned that we need to establish a base of rules and policies to live by to keep order (relatively speaking) in society. In doing so we have determined that some actions are not desirable or acceptable according to the rules and policies we have set. Therefore, we can only say man created the concept of evil.

That's not really a well structured argument. I'm sure someone could take my ideas and support them with a little deep knowledge and argue in favor of it.

That is however, one way to think about it. I'm sure I could come up with an argument to refute that as well.

[Emmanuel]

The thing is no matter what kind of logic one puts forth in this matter, there is no way to prove the existence of God. There is no proof God exists. The existence of God is purely based on faith alone. You can only believe God exists in one form or another, thus the many forms of monotheistic religion. In addition to that, it also must be faith alone to believe God is omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent, and perfect.

To address your second statement based on the concept of Free Will brought up by many in this thread, man is considered to be independent of God if God gave man free will. If that is the case, evil must be a creation of man in a way to justify or condemn actions by man. Considering man is the only true intelligent life form on the planet (however I think the more we learn about other animals we find intelligence is becoming more and more relative) we have learned much about our world and ourselves. We have also learned that we need to establish a base of rules and policies to live by to keep order (relatively speaking) in society. In doing so we have determined that some actions are not desirable or acceptable according to the rules and policies we have set. Therefore, we can only say man created the concept of evil.

That's not really a well structured argument. I'm sure someone could take my ideas and support them with a little deep knowledge and argue in favor of it.

That is however, one way to think about it. I'm sure I could come up with an argument to refute that as well.
Which is why I believe the question posed is easily explained/simplified depending upon the person asking the quesiton.

[Cat in the Hat]

Which is why I believe the question posed is easily explained/simplified depending upon the person asking the quesiton.

What do you mean? Depending upon the person asking the question and what he/she believes or doesn't believe?

[Emmanuel]

What do you mean? Depending upon the person asking the question and what he/she believes or doesn't believe?
Pretty much. I'm not one for explicating, but when it all comes down to it the answer is usually there when looking at all aspects of the question in relation to the persons beliefs.

They could argue for or against if they choose to, but it still comes down to what they believe.