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ryr8828
07-07-2007, 08:09 AM
Someone posted this on the old site, their only post.

Do you think that you’re a good person? Good enough to go to heaven?

Do you think that God sees you as good enough to enter heaven?

If so, then answer these questions honestly and carefully:

1. Have you ever told a lie? Even if it was a little “white lie.” Any time you’ve exaggerated the truth(example: You see a swarm of bees flying around and you say “There’s a billion bees in that swarm!” That would be exaggerating, because there isn’t a billion bees in the swarm. There may be a lot of bees, but there isn’t a billion. You should have said “That is a big swarm of bees!” or “That’s a lot of bees!” instead of saying there was a billion of them) is also a lie. Anytime you’ve stretched the truth to prove a point is a lie. If it isn’t 100% truth, it’s a lie.

2. Have you ever stolen anything? Regardless of the value of the item. Even if it was one 5 cent piece of bubble gum from the gas station.

3. Have you ever used God’s name as a curse word or to express disgust? Not only would this include “G-D!”, but also words like “God, I hate this day.” “Gosh, the boss is so harsh.” “Jesus Christ, that guy just cut in front of me!” “Jeez, what is that?” All of those are examples of using God’s name in vain.

4. Have you ever made a god in your mind to suit yourself? Have you ever had any idols? A god that tolerates ‘white’ lies or a fib here and there? A god that won’t punish anyone with the Lake of Fire? Any other god to suit yourself? If your god isn’t the God revealed in the Bible, than it’s a false god, an idol.

5. Have you ever seen something that someone else had and thought, “I wish I had something like that. I wish I could afford the stuff they get.” This is called coveting. And the Bible also says that covetousness is Idolatry, which is a violation of the 2nd commandment, so you’d also have to say yes to question number 4. In addition, wanting something to the point of being willing to go into debt, hurt someone, or commit some other kind of wrong is also covetousness. Wanting more and more and more of something is also covetousness. For example, if you just keep wanting more money, and no matter how much you get, you keep trying to make more of it.

6. Have you ever disobeyed your parents? Have you ever been rebellious towards them, or in any other way failed to honor your parents? Did you ever delay in obeying your parents? Delayed obedience is disobedience. Did you ever only do part of what your parents told you to do? Partial obedience is disobedience. Did you ever do something in secret that they wouldn’t want you to do? God knows all about it. You may have forgotten the sins of your youth, but God hasn’t.

7. Have you ever hated anyone? God sees hatred as murder. See 1st John 3:15.

8. Have you ever looked at another person with lust? God sees that as adultery. See Matthew 5:28.

9. Have you obeyed God concering the commandment to Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy? That means you are to set aside ONE day in Seven and rest and worship God. That means refrain from doing as you please(Isaiah 58:13-14). That means don’t pursue your hobby on the Sabbath. Don’t play your video games, don’t go out searching for coins, and don’t do any other hobbies that you may have on the Sabbath. Now, if there is something that absolutely needs to be done, like if you were to save a sheep’s life, then that’s OK, but if it’s something you could get done tomorrow or could have done yesterday, then you have sinned.

If you have done any of these things, then by your admissions, according to God’s standards, you are not good enough to go to heaven. And these are only 9 of the Ten Commandments, found in Exodus 20 in the old testament of the Bible! The other commandments are “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”, which is the First Commandment, which means we are to love God above all else, which the Bible says in Psalm 14:2-3 that all have turned aside and become corrupt, which means that NO ONE has kept the First Commandment. So it was already determined from the beginning that you would be guilty.


So, if on Judgement Day, God judges you based on the 10 commandments, do you think you’re going to be found innocent or guilty?

Well, you say, “I’ve done more good things than bad in my life”. That doesn’t matter. If you were in a trial of court for commiting a crime, would the Judge let you off just because you had done many good things before the trial? No. He would still punish you for commiting the crime. That’s because the law would require you to pay a penalty for the crime.

By the same token, God’s law still requires that a penalty be paid. Good deeds can’t pay the debt.

However, what if during that trial, what if someone you didn’t even know came into the court room and took the punishment for you so that you could be set free from the penalty of the crime?

That’s what Jesus Christ did for you when he was crucified 2000 or so years ago for your sins and for your transgression of God’s law. He took the punishment for you so that you wouldn’t have to be punished for your sins. All you have to do is accept God’s forgiveness by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior!

So, before you go to bed tonight, why not get right with God today? You might not have another chance. You don’t know when your time on Earth is going to be up. And if you die in your sins without accepting God’s mercy, you’ll have to face the Judgement of God, and with your sins still in the books, there will be no hope on that great and terrible day. But you don’t have to die in your sins, and God doesn’t want you to, either. He is not willing that any perish, but rather, he wants all to come to repentance. So, why not get right with God now while you still have a chance?

If you want to make a decision to accept Jesus Christ as the atonement for your sins, then sincerely pray this prayer:

“God, I admit that I am a sinner and that I have broken your law. I realize that I am lost without God and that I’m headed towards a terrible judgement. However, God, today I confess my sins to you and I want to be right with you. I know that I alone cannot pay the debt that I owe for my sins. I believe with all my heart that your son, Jesus Christ, died on the cross to pay my sin debt for me, and I ask today that Jesus Christ be the Lord and Savior of my life, and I turn from my sins. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen.” If you just prayed that prayer, and sincerely meant it, then you are now adopted into the Family of God, on your way to the splendor of heaven. To start out your Christian life, I would suggest that you pray to God, read your bible every day, and get into a good Bible-teaching Church.
Well, you might ask, what if I refuse Jesus’ offer? Well, that’s what I’m going to discuss now.

If you refuse to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and die without accepting him as Savior, then you will die in your sin, and then there will be no hope for you. Instead of spending eternity in Heaven, a place of pure bliss where everyone is happy and there is no suffering and the streets are made of pure gold, you will go to another place. A terrible place.
A PLACE CALLED THE LAKE OF FIRE!

God originally made Hell for Satan and his band of Demons(Satan and his demons are former angels who turned against God, so God kicked them out of heaven). God never wanted any of us human beings to go there. But, if you don’t accept Jesus’ offer of Salvation, then Hell is where you will go. God takes no pleasure in this, but this is YOUR CHOICE. You might say “God wouldn’t send anyone to hell”. Your “god” wouldn’t send people to burn in the Lake of Fire for eternity because your “god” doesn’t exist. It’s a figment of your imagination. That’s called Idolatry, and God warns that all idolaters will have their part in the Lake of Fire(Revelation 21:8)

Here’s what The Lake of Fire is like just incase you’re wondering:

1. THE LAKE OF FIRE IS A REAL PLACE! IT DOESN’T MATTER IF YOU BELIEVE IN HELL OR NOT! IT’S STILL THERE AND YOU’RE STILL GOING TO HELL IF YOU DON’T ACCEPT JESUS AS SAVIOR!

2. THE LAKE OF FIRE is a place where you will burn forever and ever in a blazing fire. Your suffering will NEVER end, and it NEVER stops. You will never get even one NANOSECOND of rest from the pain. Revelation 14:11 says that “…and they have no rest day nor night…”, which means that your torment will go on forever and ever, with no breaks.

3. You will wail, weep, and gnash your teeth over the simple fact that accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and then faithfully following Him no matter(because if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and later on decide to turn away from Jesus Christ to follow Him no more, then you lose your salvation) what would have kept you from this awful place of never ending pain, suffering, agony, and regret.

4. You won’t even get a DROP OF WATER to ease your pain(Luke 16:24). Nothing. Your pain is NEVER eased. NEVER. You will remain in mind-numbing thirst throughout eternity.

5. You will hear the blood-curdling screams of the other tormented billions who are in the Lake of Fire with you, screaming for mercy, which in hell, you will NEVER get. Because you rejected God’s mercy when He offered it in this life, you will suffer God’s never-ending wrath.

6. You will suffer MENTAL torment, as you remember your life on Earth and all the good things on Earth that you took for granted, such as smiling faces you once knew, beautiful sunsets, rolling hills, the people who loved you, and will weep with appalling sadness and anguish that you will NEVER again experience or see any more blessings. No more love, no more beautiful scenes, no more smiling faces. Only regret, anguish, agony, thirst, and extreme torment as you burn and burn, forever in the Lake of Fire.

7. Also, it’s important that you understand WHO will be in the Lake of Fire with you, if you go there. Those people in the Lake of Fire with you will be drunkards, murderers, thieves, homosexuals, whoremongers, adulterers, hypocrites, rapists, idolaters, Satanists, witches, people who mess with magic and other forms of sorcery, which God says is an abomination to Him(Deuteronomy 18:9-12), and in addition to this, there will be liars, greedy people, swindlers, among other people who will be in this awful place of torment, begging for mercy and never getting it.
So, there you have it. A description of what The Lake of Fire will be like if you decide to go there by rejecting Jesus.

8. You will remember the times that people warned you about the torments of hell and told you that you could avoid it by trusting Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, and you will remember how you just shrugged it off and said “I don’t need God”, “I’ve got my own thing”, or “I’ll get to Jesus Christ later”, and will regret the fact that you could at that moment, have made the choice to follow Christ and avoid this place of never-ending extreme agony.

DON’T LET THIS CHANCE TO ACCEPT JESUS SLIP BY!
You might not get another chance! This might be your last chance to accept Jesus as Savior, since you really don’t know when you’re going to die! Don’t think “Well, I’ll just wait until I get older”, because you could die before then! You could even die tonight even! And if you die without Jesus, then you will go to hell. There are many people who have said “I’ll accept Jesus Christ as my Savior later in life when I’ve done what I’ve pleased” who are now wailing, weeping, and gnashing their teeth in agony they’ve never know in this life in the everlasting flames of the Lake of Fire, regretting that they didn’t accept Jesus Christ when they have the chance. Proverbs 27:1 says “Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.” So, you see, you don’t know if you will have another chance to get saved, so heed this warning now!


But you say, “I don’t believe the Bible/in God/in Christianity”

Well, first off, your lack of belief in the Bible doesn’t change the facts. If you ran into a freeway with an 18-wheeler semi-truck coming at you and you said “I don’t believe in trucks”, you would still pay the consequences for stepping in the freeway in the way of the truck.

Also, a building is proof that there was a builder, and a painting is proof that there was a painter. Creation is proof that there is a creator(Almighty God).

Also, there are quite a few scientific facts that are in the Bible and were in the Bible long before man discovered those scientific facts.


# Jeremiah 33:22 (written 2500 years ago): "As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured."


The Bible claimed that there are billions of stars ("host of heaven" is the biblical term for the stars). When it made this statement, no one knew how vast the numbers of stars were as only about 1,100 were observable. Now we know that there are billions of stars, and that they cannot be numbered.


# Job 26:7 (written 3500 years ago): "He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing."


The Bible claimed that the earth freely floated in space. Science then thought that the earth sat on a large animal. We now know that the earth has a free float in space.


# Hebrews 11:3 (written 2000 years ago): "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."


The Bible claims that all creation is made of invisible material. Science then was ignorant of the subject. We now know that the entire creation is made of invisible elements called "atoms."


# Leviticus 17:11 (written 3000 years ago): "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."


The Scriptures declare that blood is the source of life. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled", and many died because of the practice. We now know that blood is the source of life. If you lose your blood, you will lose your life.


# Leviticus 15:13 (written 3000 years ago): "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean."


The Bible said that when dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water. Up until 100 years ago doctors washed their hands in a basin of still water, resulting in the death of multitudes. We now know that doctors must wash their hands under running water. The Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who were dying after giving birth in hospitals. As many as 30% of those giving birth died. The Doctor noted that doctors would examine the bodies of those who had died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next wards and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Doctor Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped down to 2%.


# Job 38:35 (written 3,500 years ago. God Himself speaking): "Can you send lightnings, that they may go and say unto you, Here we are?"


The Bible here is saying a scientifically ludicrous statement -- that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves move at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn' t discover this until 1864 when "the British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia, Vol. 12).


# Isaiah 40:22 (written 2800 years ago): "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth."


The Bible informs us here that the earth is round. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, it was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world. He wrote: "It was the Lord who put it into my mind. I could feel His hand upon me . . . there is no question the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures . . ." (From his diary, in reference to his discovery of "the New World").


# Job 38:19 (written 3500 years ago). "Where is the way where light dwells?"


Modern man has only just discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," involving motion traveling at 186,000 miles per second.


# Genesis 1:1,3 (written 3,450 years ago): "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth . . . And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."


Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power and motion. "In the beginning (time) God created (power) the Heaven (space) and the earth (matter) . . . And the Spirit of God moved (motion) upon the face of the waters."


# Why did the dinosaur disappear? This is something that has modern science mystified, but the Bible may have the answer (written 3500 years ago. God Himself is speaking):


"Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eats grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. He lies under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. Behold, he drinks up a river, and hastens not: he trusts that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. He takes it with his eyes: his nose pierces through snares. (Job 40:15-24).


This was the Largest of all creatures He made.
It was plant-eating (herbivorous).
It had its strength in its hips.
Its tail was like a large tree (a cedar).
It had very strong bones.
Its habitat was among the trees.
Drank massive amounts of water.
His nose pierced through snares.
Then Scripture says, " . . . He that made him can make his sword approach to him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.


# Psalm 8:8: "And the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas."

What does the Bible mean by "paths" of the seas? The sea is just a huge mass of water, how then could it have "paths?" Man discovered the existence of ocean currents in the 1850's, but the Bible declared the science of oceanography 2,800 years ago. Matthew Maury (1806- 1873) is considered to be the father of oceanography. He was bedridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea." Upon his recovery, Maury took God at His word and went looking for these paths. His book on oceanography is still considered a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities.


# Jonah 2:6 (written 2,800 years ago): "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet have you brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God."

When Jonah was in the depths of the ocean, he spoke of going down to the "bottoms of the mountains." Only in recent years has man discovered that there are mountains on the ocean floor. The greatest ocean depth has been sounded in the Challenger Deep of the Mariana's Trench, a distance of 35,798 feet below sea level. Mount Everest is 29,035 feet high.


# Amos 9:6 (written 2,800 years ago): "He . . . calls for the waters of the sea, and pours them out upon the face of the earth; the Lord is His name."

The Mississippi River dumps over six million gallons of water per second into the Gulf of Mexico. Where does all that water go? That's just one of thousands of rivers. The answer lies in the hydrologic cycle, something that was not fully accepted until the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, 2500 years after the Bible said that God takes the waters of the sea, and pours them upon the face of the earth.


# Job 38:12, 14, (written 3500 years ago) God Himself says: "Have you commanded the morning since your days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It [the earth] is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment."

Modern science has come to understand that the earth's rotation on its axis is responsible for the sun's rising and setting. The picture here is of a vessel of clay being turned or rotated upon the potter's wheel -- an accurate analogy of the earth's rotation.


# Psalm 19:4-6: "In them has He set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoices as a strong man to run a race. His [the sun's] going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."


Bible critics have scoffed at these verses, saying that they teach that the sun revolves around the earth. Science told them that the sun was stationary. Then they discovered that the sun is in fact moving through space at approximately 600,000 miles per hour. It is traveling through the heavens and has a "circuit" just as the Bible says. It is estimated that its circuit is so large, it would take 200 million years to complete one orbit.


# Job 38:22 (written 3,500 years ago). God says: "Have you entered into the treasures of the snow?"


It wasn't until the advent of the microscope that man discovered that each and every single snowflake is uniquely a symmetrical "treasure."


# Genesis 2:1 (after creation): "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."


The Hebrew word used here is the past definite tense for the verb "finished," indicating an action completed in the past, never again to occur. The creation was "finished" -- once and for all. That is what the First Law of Thermodynamics says. It states that neither matter nor energy can be either created or destroyed. There is no "creation" ongoing today. It is "finished" exactly as the Bible states.


# Hebrews 1:10,11 (written 2000 years ago): ". . . And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands: They shall perish; but you remain; and they all shall wax old as does a garment." The Bible tells us that the earth is wearing out. This is what the Second Law of Thermodynamics states. This wasn't discovered by science until comparatively recently.


# Genesis 17:12: "And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed."


Why was circumcision to be carried out on the eighth day? Medical science has discovered that the eighth day is the only day in the entire life of the newborn that the blood clotting element prothrombin is above 100%.


# Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."


This verse reveals that a female possesses the "seed of life." This was not the common knowledge until a few centuries ago. It was widely believed that the male only possessed the "seed of life" and that the woman was nothing more than a glorified incubator.


# Isaiah 40:12 (written 2,800 years ago): "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand . . ."


We are told that God has measured the waters and set a proper amount of water on the earth. Modern science has proved that the quantity of water on earth is just enough for our needs. If the sea became three meters deeper, the water would absorb all the carbon dioxide and nitrogen, and no creature could live any longer.


Job 26:7 (written 3500 years ago): "He stretches out the north over the empty place . . ."


Less than 200 years ago, through the advent of massive telescopes, science learned about the great empty space in the north.


# Isaiah 40:22 (written 2,800 years ago): "It is He that . . . stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in."


Scientists are beginning to understand that the universe is expanding, or stretching out. At least seven times in Scripture we are clearly told that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain.


WWW.NEEDGOD.COM (http://www.needgod.com/)

hannitykillspuppies
07-07-2007, 10:48 PM
jeez is not taking the lord's name in vein.

MTVike
07-08-2007, 12:39 AM
That's one helluva sales pitch.

pnkpanther
07-08-2007, 02:07 AM
That's one helluva sales pitch.

yes and no

a circle is flat BTW


the bible mentions more then once the earth is on Pillars and doesnt move


and well, i suppose i could go on...

LSU
07-08-2007, 02:51 AM
1. Have you ever told a lie? Even if it was a little “white lie.” Any time you’ve exaggerated the truth(example: You see a swarm of bees flying around and you say “There’s a billion bees in that swarm!” That would be exaggerating, because there isn’t a billion bees in the swarm. There may be a lot of bees, but there isn’t a billion. You should have said “That is a big swarm of bees!” or “That’s a lot of bees!” instead of saying there was a billion of them) is also a lie. Anytime you’ve stretched the truth to prove a point is a lie. If it isn’t 100% truth, it’s a lie.



Hmm...

Interesting.

A lie gets you into Hell, but really doesn't because if you accept Jesus as your savior, then, all's good...

So what happened if someone lied before Jesus? All bets are off?

Because if so, wouldn't Abraham and Isaac both be swimming in a lake of fire for telling people that their wives (Sarah and Rebecca) were their sisters for fear someone might kill them to get the pretty gals (at least, that's my understanding from Genesis)?

That's a lie, no?


Hey, if I end up in Hell, at least I can say that better men haven't fared much better.

LSU
07-08-2007, 02:58 AM
I also find the use of the terms "scientific facts" a little out of place in this context. I don't feel like making a big to do about it right now, so I'll just leave it as simple as that.


But let me just state one thing, regarding "the creation".


Isn't there something about God creating two seas, but separating them using the sky? Thus, saying that there's the sea on the Earth, and then a sea above the Earth? Which one is that? The one that creates rains? That is, they thought there was an ocean above the sky and that's where rain came from? Not really knowing the whole hydrologic cycle as described above?

Or did I misinterpret something along the way?

Hotpapa666
07-08-2007, 03:43 AM
I find it strange that anyone would follow an obviously flawed 2000 year old book. I find it stranger that people who are huge sinners have no problem moralizing using that book. But, I think about things, rather than except anything based on faith so anything that stems from faith is strange to me.

KinjaKahn
07-08-2007, 05:39 PM
I find it strange that anyone would follow an obviously flawed 2000 year old book.
Nobody can follow the book, and everyone is a sinner. The object is to have a standard to try and live up to.
I find it stranger that people who are huge sinners have no problem moralizing using that book.
The morality of "that book" is the basis for western culture and society. How far we deviate from that base is of no matter.

Incidental information: When the King of England signed the charters for the First Virginia Charter & The Massachusetts Bay Colony Charter, he specifically required the settlers. to spread Christianity to the natives. The same Christianity "that book" inspires.

Wee, greately commending and graciously accepting of theire desires to the furtherance of soe noble a worke which may, by the providence of Almightie God, hereafter tende to the glorie of His Divine Majestie in propagating of Christian religion to suche people as yet live in darkenesse and miserable ignorance of the true knoweledge and worshippe of God and may in tyme bring the infidels and salvages living in those parts to humane civilitie and to a setled and quiet govermente, doe by theise our lettres patents graciously accepte of and agree to theire humble and well intended desires;"- The First Virginia Charter 4/10/1606

"...incite the Natives of Country, to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intention..." - The 1629 Charter Of Massachusetts Bay

But, I think about things, rather than except anything based on faith so anything that stems from faith is strange to me.
Science itself is based upon the faith that the big bang took place. What triggered the big bang, why did it happen at the precise time that it did and not 2 seconds before or after? Then there is the String Theory, which requires faith, as there is no test to confirm its validity.

LSU
07-08-2007, 05:53 PM
Science itself is based upon the faith that the big bang took place. What triggered the big bang, why did it happen at the precise time that it did and not 2 seconds before or after? Then there is the String Theory, which requires faith, as there is no test to confirm its validity.


Science is based on the big bang?

Or the big bang is based on science?


Science is absolutely not based on faith of the big bang. If the big bang were disproven, the rest of scientific knowledge would not crumble.


Science is based on repeatable studies/observations (that's not to say science is always correct). Testable hypotheses...which is why little in regards to a deity can be offered as "science". To have a testable hypothesis, the hypothesis must be falsifiable. How can you falsify the existence of a supernatural Being?

Things that appear to disprove science do not prove God. They simply point to a different answer to be found. Now, perhaps that answer really is God. Maybe, not definitely.

Ed Who?
07-08-2007, 07:51 PM
Things that appear to disprove science do not prove God. They simply point to a different answer to be found. Now, perhaps that answer really is God. Maybe, not definitely.

God proves Himself in the minds of His followers. The problem is, that personal proof (i.e. revelation) does not satisfy someone who is unwilling to ask God to reveal Himself. The entire Christian religion is founded in a trust...a trust that is a very personal belief.

Hotpapa666
07-08-2007, 08:30 PM
Nobody can follow the book, and everyone is a sinner. The object is to have a standard to try and live up to.

The morality of "that book" is the basis for western culture and society. How far we deviate from that base is of no matter.

Incidental information: When the King of England signed the charters for the First Virginia Charter & The Massachusetts Bay Colony Charter, he specifically required the settlers. to spread Christianity to the natives. The same Christianity "that book" inspires.

Wee, greately commending and graciously accepting of theire desires to the furtherance of soe noble a worke which may, by the providence of Almightie God, hereafter tende to the glorie of His Divine Majestie in propagating of Christian religion to suche people as yet live in darkenesse and miserable ignorance of the true knoweledge and worshippe of God and may in tyme bring the infidels and salvages living in those parts to humane civilitie and to a setled and quiet govermente, doe by theise our lettres patents graciously accepte of and agree to theire humble and well intended desires;"- The First Virginia Charter 4/10/1606

"...incite the Natives of Country, to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intention..." - The 1629 Charter Of Massachusetts Bay


Science itself is based upon the faith that the big bang took place. What triggered the big bang, why did it happen at the precise time that it did and not 2 seconds before or after? Then there is the String Theory, which requires faith, as there is no test to confirm its validity.

A few things that jump out. If western morality were based on that book we wouldn't be able to eat pork or shellfish or cheeseburgers, we would be able to own slaves, stoning would be punishment for girls having sex out of wedlock, etc.. Just because the Bible got a few commonsense concepts correct about how to live doesn't make it the fountain from which all morality springs.

Science is not based on faith. Nothing could be futher from the truth. Science is a method by which questions are posed and answered. Faith is the bullheaded adherance to a principle even dispite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Whether or not scientists are able to fully answer a question now doesn't make using that principle faith, they are assuming that the question will be answered in the future and, if the question is an important one, they are correct in doing so.

LSU
07-08-2007, 09:16 PM
God proves Himself in the minds of His followers. The problem is, that personal proof (i.e. revelation) does not satisfy someone who is unwilling to ask God to reveal Himself. The entire Christian religion is founded in a trust...a trust that is a very personal belief.



But that has nothing really to do with what I was talking about regarding science.


But either way, I'm not sure I agree. "God proves Himself in the minds of His followers." So the existence of God is proven by someone believing in God? I don't see that logic. God either exists or he doesn't whether or not people believe in him. If God is up there and there are no Christians in the universe, does that mean God doesn't exist? Alternatively, if belief = truth, then I'm going unicorn hunting.

KinjaKahn
07-08-2007, 10:26 PM
A few things that jump out. If western morality were based on that book we wouldn't be able to eat pork or shellfish or cheeseburgers, we would be able to own slaves, stoning would be punishment for girls having sex out of wedlock, etc.. Just because the Bible got a few commonsense concepts correct about how to live doesn't make it the fountain from which all morality springs.
Eating pork and shellfish, owning slaves, stoning whores... are jewish legal rules, and priestly ritual, and are not in the bible as direct orders from God, whereas the ten commandments are. The 10 commandments are the basis for our system of laws, not the Torah as a whole, what we have added and subtracted from those 10 is simply a social evolution.

Science is not based on faith. Nothing could be futher from the truth. Science is a method by which questions are posed and answered. Faith is the bullheaded adherance to a principle even dispite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Whether or not scientists are able to fully answer a question now doesn't make using that principle faith, they are assuming that the question will be answered in the future and, if the question is an important one, they are correct in doing so.
I'll simplify it for you... Science is the product of intelligence. Intelligence primarily exists in terrestrial animals and some marine mammals on earth, however the marine mammals tend not to make super colliders. Those terrestrial animals exist because of the sun. The Sun is a product of the big bang. You cannot have science without a big bang. The Big Bang is based on faith that it even "happened".

pnkpanther
07-08-2007, 10:29 PM
Eating pork and shellfish, owning slaves, stoning whores... are jewish legal rules, and priestly ritual, and are not in the bible as direct orders from God, whereas the ten commandments are. The 10 commandments are the basis for our system of laws, not the Torah as a whole, what we have added and subtracted from those 10 is simply a social evolution.


I'll simplify it for you... Science is the product of intelligence. Intelligence primarily exists in terrestrial animals and some marine mammals on earth, however the marine mammals tend not to make super colliders. Those terrestrial animals exist because of the sun. The Sun is a product of the big bang.

then ten commandments are the basis of our laws? arent only like 3 of the commandments law?

KinjaKahn
07-08-2007, 10:42 PM
then ten commandments are the basis of our laws? arent only like 3 of the commandments law?

Perhaps you missed this part???

Originally Posted by KinjaKahn
...what we have added and subtracted from those 10 is simply a social evolution.

Vegas
07-08-2007, 10:45 PM
Isn't there something about God creating two seas, but separating them using the sky? Thus, saying that there's the sea on the Earth, and then a sea above the Earth? Which one is that? The one that creates rains? That is, they thought there was an ocean above the sky and that's where rain came from? Not really knowing the whole hydrologic cycle as described above?

Or did I misinterpret something along the way?

Prior to the Genesis flood, it never rained. The waters above the firmament refers to a vapor canopy that existed "above the firmament." The vapor canopy provided for a worldwide tropical climate, which accounts for the fact that there are fossilized remains of reptiles in Siberia and other areas of the world where they could not have otherwise have lived. It also filtered out enough of the solar radiation to allow the long lifespans of people prior to the flood. Afterwards, lifespans rapidly shortened.

pnkpanther
07-08-2007, 11:05 PM
Perhaps you missed this part???

no didnt miss it, just curious how it's basis of our legal system

1. You shall have no other Gods but me.
Not a law
2. You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.

Not a law
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

Not a law

4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
Not a law
5. Respect your father and mother.

Not a law.
6. You must not kill.
A LAW
7. You must not commit adultery.
Not a law
8. You must not steal.
A law
9. You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.

A law
10. You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.

not a law

3 laws
7 no's.

so tell me again, how the ten commandmetns are the basis of our legal system?

pnkpanther
07-08-2007, 11:16 PM
Prior to the Genesis flood, it never rained. The waters above the firmament refers to a vapor canopy that existed "above the firmament." The vapor canopy provided for a worldwide tropical climate, which accounts for the fact that there are fossilized remains of reptiles in Siberia and other areas of the world where they could not have otherwise have lived. It also filtered out enough of the solar radiation to allow the long lifespans of people prior to the flood. Afterwards, lifespans rapidly shortened.

The "flood" and noah's ark is one of my main sticking point's in believing the creationism story.

How did noah get 2 of every species on an ark?

and it would also mean everything is a result of inbreeding.

KinjaKahn
07-09-2007, 12:19 AM
no didnt miss it, just curious how it's basis of our legal system
Read it slower then... a few more times if need be...
1. You shall have no other Gods but me.
Not a law

2. You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.

Not a law
Look into the Salem witch trials and see how western society dealt with those who worship another god or Idol.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

Not a law
Britain still has blasphemy laws on the books. They are western Culture. I believe its still an active law that remains in place to stem societal outrage from those who would seek to cause a commotion with contempt for Christianity.
4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
Not a law
This has evolved into a few different versions, some restricting alcohol consumption, to others providing protection from your employer requiring you to work on Sunday.
5. Respect your father and mother.

Not a law.
Another evolved concept... many laws require consent from parents to do something or go places, such as marriage to minors, or even entering the armed services...

6. You must not kill.
A LAW
7. You must not commit adultery.
Not a law
Adultry laws are still on the books in various place within the US. Even the Federal government, in 1997 prosecuted a female soldier and Court marshaled her for adultery.
8. You must not steal.
A law
9. You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.

A law
10. You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.

not a law
Envy is rather difficult to prove, as it would be more of a thought crime.

3 laws
7 no's.

so tell me again, how the ten commandmetns are the basis of our legal system?
Originally I made no reference to the US constitution or even any obscure local ordinances, I referenced western culture, and that goes back pretty far. The changes in the laws from the beginning of western culture until now is part of our social evolution.

LSU
07-09-2007, 01:54 AM
Prior to the Genesis flood, it never rained. The waters above the firmament refers to a vapor canopy that existed "above the firmament." The vapor canopy provided for a worldwide tropical climate, which accounts for the fact that there are fossilized remains of reptiles in Siberia and other areas of the world where they could not have otherwise have lived. It also filtered out enough of the solar radiation to allow the long lifespans of people prior to the flood. Afterwards, lifespans rapidly shortened.



6: And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
7: And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so.
8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.


It says nothing about a vapor canopy.

Or are we to impose some sort of interpretive meaning? Or is that explanation elsewhere in the Bible?



So, then the "vapor canopy" was what filtered out the radiation? How did it disappear? Or was that from the great flood? Does that mean that if people were not exposed to solar radiation that they could live to be 700 years old?


Sorry, but I call bullshit there.

LSU
07-09-2007, 02:08 AM
The "flood" and noah's ark is one of my main sticking point's in believing the creationism story.

How did noah get 2 of every species on an ark?

and it would also mean everything is a result of inbreeding.


Including humans, as everyone is a descendent of Noah.

Unless you're a fish, because I imagine a fish could survive a flood, unless I missed where the flood killed the fish, either that for fish hadn't been created yet.


But the thing that gets me is that after the flood, "Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar." If the clean fowl and beasts were on in one pair, wouldn't sacrificing one of the pair then negate any breeding potential?

Now, the "clean" animals were supposed to be taken up in more than one pair, no? I think 7 pairs of the clean ones? (Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.) But...didn't Noah just take one pair of each?? (8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.)


Interpretation could say that 7 pairs went in, but also that only one pair went in, no? It does say "as God commanded" and God commanded 7 pairs...


But, that's just some wording issues.


Were there 7 pairs or just 1 pair?

LSU
07-09-2007, 02:21 AM
Regarding the Creation story, there are a few contradictions I've noticed, mainly these:

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Oops, I guess there were fish there before the flood...so I guess God meant to kill every living thing on Earth with the flood...how did he kill the fish? Whales were mentioned, too. Oh, also, the command was there for humankind to be fruitful and multiply...they (Adam and his rib) didn't conceive until after they ate the forbidden fruit...just a technicality?


29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

God gave every herb bearing seed to man, and every tree, too...except for one, I guess, huh? But without that one, they may have never noticed they were naked, and therefore may have never had intercourse, and we wouldn't be here today to discuss them...one big circle, eh?



But, I'm no Bible scholar, so I'm sure I've got it all mucked up.

Hotpapa666
07-09-2007, 02:32 AM
Eating pork and shellfish, owning slaves, stoning whores... are jewish legal rules, and priestly ritual, and are not in the bible as direct orders from God, whereas the ten commandments are. The 10 commandments are the basis for our system of laws, not the Torah as a whole, what we have added and subtracted from those 10 is simply a social evolution.


I'll simplify it for you... Science is the product of intelligence. Intelligence primarily exists in terrestrial animals and some marine mammals on earth, however the marine mammals tend not to make super colliders. Those terrestrial animals exist because of the sun. The Sun is a product of the big bang. You cannot have science without a big bang. The Big Bang is based on faith that it even "happened".


There is very little correlation between the 10 commandments and western law; we don't have laws that say you can't whorship a false idol for example. There may be some coincidencial over lap. But that's it/

The Big Bang is a scientific theory, based on evidence and has nothing to do with faith. Faith and Science are completely incompatible ways of answering quesitons. Science requires evidence in order for conclusions to be made. Faith requires there be absolutely no evidence.

LSU
07-09-2007, 02:34 AM
The Big Bang is a scientific theory, based on evidence and has nothing to do with faith. Faith and Science are completely incompatible ways of answering quesitons. Science requires evidence in order for conclusions to be made. Faith requires there be absolutely no evidence.


Often (but not always), Faith is used as an explanation when science doesn't yet have one.


"Miracle" is the explanation I'm thinking of...

LSU
07-09-2007, 02:41 AM
While we're on the topic of the OT, I have a question.

What was the crime(s) of Sodom?

I've heard it alluded to that it was homosexuality (although, what's the exact quote from the Bible regarding what the men of Sodom wanted from the 2 men in the house...that they wanted to "know" them?) Perhaps that quote does mean they wanted some man-love...but isn't it just an assumption that that is the reason God had a problem with the people of Sodom? From what I've read, it never does say exactly that that is the reason...at least not what I've read thus far. Although, one version I've seen spelled it out for the reader, something along the lines of "the men wanted to have sex with them." Quite a blunt statement, seemingly of fact, to a person reading that version. However, that line doesn't show up in 2 other versions I've seen, so...


Looks like a lack of information that could allow for all sorts of differing interpretations.

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 10:36 AM
the crime of sodom was being inhospital.

they wanted to "know" the men (angels). many have translated this to have sex with.

LSU
07-09-2007, 11:37 AM
the crime of sodom was being inhospital.

they wanted to "know" the men (angels). many have translated this to have sex with.


Yeah, I know that is what it was translated to...but is that correct? Does it say somewhere else that that is what the crime was?


And even if that translation (sex) is correct...where is it said that that is the reason for the sulfur raining down?


And also, didn't God promise that if 10 "good" people were found that the city would be spared? So, all the women and children were gay, too, and guilty of homosexuality? Or are they guilty by association?

Or is it that they just all liked anal sex regardless of whether or not it was male or female...don't need to be gay for anal.

Tom Joad
07-09-2007, 11:43 AM
I've always wondered if dinosaurs died out because Noah couldn't fit them on the Ark? :rolleyes:

IBC
07-09-2007, 11:53 AM
I've always wondered if dinosaurs died out because Noah couldn't fit them on the Ark? :rolleyes:
Yes, they lived right along side humans until the great flood. Didn't you know that?

LSU
07-09-2007, 12:00 PM
Yes, they lived right along side humans until the great flood. Didn't you know that?


Perhaps they were "unclean", so Noah only took one pair. Then the inbreeding wiped them out.

IBC
07-09-2007, 12:01 PM
Perhaps they were "unclean", so Noah only took one pair. Then the inbreeding wiped them out.
Do you believe that you came from goo?

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 12:08 PM
Read it slower then... a few more times if need be...

Look into the Salem witch trials and see how western society dealt with those who worship another god or Idol.

Britain still has blasphemy laws on the books. They are western Culture. I believe its still an active law that remains in place to stem societal outrage from those who would seek to cause a commotion with contempt for Christianity.

This has evolved into a few different versions, some restricting alcohol consumption, to others providing protection from your employer requiring you to work on Sunday.

Another evolved concept... many laws require consent from parents to do something or go places, such as marriage to minors, or even entering the armed services...


Adultry laws are still on the books in various place within the US. Even the Federal government, in 1997 prosecuted a female soldier and Court marshaled her for adultery.



Envy is rather difficult to prove, as it would be more of a thought crime.


Originally I made no reference to the US constitution or even any obscure local ordinances, I referenced western culture, and that goes back pretty far. The changes in the laws from the beginning of western culture until now is part of our social evolution.


http://www.commonlaw.com/Hammurabi.html

2. If a man has accused another of laying a kispu [spell] upon him, but has not proved it, the accused shall go to the sacred river, he shall plunge into the sacred river, and if the river shall conquer him, he that accused him shall take possession of his house. If the sacred river shall show his innocence and he is saved, his accuser shall be put to death. He that plunged into the sacred river shall appropriate the house of him that accused.


F*cking Babylonians.

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 12:09 PM
Do you believe that you came from goo?

Goo or not...That Ana Ivanovic is one hot broad.

LSU
07-09-2007, 12:20 PM
Do you believe that you came from goo?


Depends on what you mean. According to the Bible, Adam was created from the Earth...


Do I believe the story of Creation as based on Genesis? No, nowhere close.


But, what is in the ground is what man is made of, as evidenced by when he dies, he decomposes and returns to the ground (something else that is in Genesis).

So, in a roundabout way, the story of Creation does include that man is made up of many compounds and elements of the Earth, and upon death, those elements return to the Earth to form new life again.


So, do I believe we're made from "goo"...I guess, yes, assuming "goo" is what I think you mean.

And if it isn't what I think you mean, then still possibly yes.


Basically, my point here is that there are some things the Bible does have correctly, i.e., that man is made up of things found in dirt (or soil, or the Earth)...how those things came to be life is where I draw my distinctions from the words of Genesis.

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 12:23 PM
Yeah, I know that is what it was translated to...but is that correct? Does it say somewhere else that that is what the crime was?


And even if that translation (sex) is correct...where is it said that that is the reason for the sulfur raining down?


And also, didn't God promise that if 10 "good" people were found that the city would be spared? So, all the women and children were gay, too, and guilty of homosexuality? Or are they guilty by association?

Or is it that they just all liked anal sex regardless of whether or not it was male or female...don't need to be gay for anal.


depends on what version you listen too

false gods, idol worship, inhospital, etc

LSU
07-09-2007, 01:21 PM
depends on what version you listen too

false gods, idol worship, inhospital, etc


I just have one version of the Bible, so that's the one I've been perusing. Although at church yesterday I looked through a different version and it was a lot less...interpretive, I'd say. That is, I think the version I have is for a younger crowd (I got it when I was 8 from my church), so it's easier for kids to understand, but it also takes liberties with the explanations...not sure if that's a good thing or not. But the one I was looking at at church was less interpretive, at least from what I could tell.

My wife works with a guy that is big into religion and almost went to seminary...she has some interesting conversations with him regarding interpretations, contradictions, etc. But he has told her that he thinks the Revised Standard is the better of the versions...so I may have to go purchase that one sometime.

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 01:36 PM
I just have one version of the Bible, so that's the one I've been perusing. Although at church yesterday I looked through a different version and it was a lot less...interpretive, I'd say. That is, I think the version I have is for a younger crowd (I got it when I was 8 from my church), so it's easier for kids to understand, but it also takes liberties with the explanations...not sure if that's a good thing or not. But the one I was looking at at church was less interpretive, at least from what I could tell.

My wife works with a guy that is big into religion and almost went to seminary...she has some interesting conversations with him regarding interpretations, contradictions, etc. But he has told her that he thinks the Revised Standard is the better of the versions...so I may have to go purchase that one sometime.


old testament is written in aramaic and new testament in greek. translation issues are throughout...

i posted an article about sodom and gamora awhile back giving a different side.

some geological evidence shows Sulfur came from the ground, not the sky. Like a volcanic eruption...

LSU
07-09-2007, 01:40 PM
old testament is written in aramaic and new testament in greek. translation issues are throughout...

i posted an article about sodom and gamora awhile back giving a different side.

some geological evidence shows Sulfur came from the ground, not the sky. Like a volcanic eruption...


Yeah, I know about translations, but this isn't a translational issue I'm talking about. It's interpretive. For instance, the translation will be going along, and then there will be a summation of what the tranlsation "means". Like with the Sodom stuff, at the end of the paragraph talking about the men of Sodom asking to "know" the 2 men, it says "The men wanted to have sex with them."

That's an interpretive thing rather than translational, IMO.

As for the sulfur from the sky, a volcano is the first thing I thought of, too.

Ed Who?
07-09-2007, 01:51 PM
the crime of sodom was being inhospital.

they wanted to "know" the men (angels). many have translated this to have sex with.

Genesis 19:6-8 KJV:

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Easy to determine from this that they're referring to sex, but the KJV was written in a time where talk of sex was less acceptable.

LSU
07-09-2007, 01:57 PM
Genesis 19:6-8 KJV:



Easy to determine from this that they're referring to sex, but the KJV was written in a time where talk of sex was less acceptable.


I think it's just as easy to "determine" that the men of Sodom wanted to perhaps do harm to the 2 visitors, and thus Lot offered his daughters in hopes that a little "in and out" would appease them, and would leave the visitors alone.

Or maybe it's your way, because I can see how that interpretation could hold merit as well.


BUT! Where does it say that this "crime" is why God punished the people of Sodom?

KinjaKahn
07-09-2007, 02:03 PM
http://www.commonlaw.com/Hammurabi.html

The Code of Hammurabi would be relevant if it was known to be in existence at the time of Jesus or even 1500 years after Jesus. The Code of Hammurabi wasn't discovered until about 35 years after the US civil war, long after western culture was thriving. Perhaps the 10 commandments was plagiarized by Moses, that is forever unknown, and equally irrelevant.

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 02:22 PM
The Code of Hammurabi would be relevant if it was known to be in existence at the time of Jesus or even 1500 years after Jesus. The Code of Hammurabi wasn't discovered until about 35 years after the US civil war, long after western culture was thriving. Perhaps the 10 commandments was plagiarized by Moses, that is forever unknown, and equally irrelevant.

Me and you should go halves on an investment home....

Tom Joad
07-09-2007, 02:39 PM
The Code of Hammurabi would be relevant if it was known to be in existence at the time of Jesus or even 1500 years after Jesus. The Code of Hammurabi wasn't discovered until about 35 years after the US civil war, long after western culture was thriving. Perhaps the 10 commandments was plagiarized by Moses, that is forever unknown, and equally irrelevant.

Right, because so many people back in 1901 wrote in ancient Akkadian.

KinjaKahn
07-09-2007, 02:48 PM
Me and you should go halves on an investment home....
You're a bears fan... I wouldn't trust you with half a wooden nickel.

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 02:57 PM
You're a bears fan... I wouldn't trust you with half a wooden nickel.

What if I rent out a conference room at the local Hilton and show you pictures of really expensive sh*t? How about then?

KinjaKahn
07-09-2007, 03:00 PM
What if I rent out a conference room at the local Hilton and show you pictures of really expensive sh*t? How about then?
How does that negate your bears fan status?

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 03:05 PM
How does that negate your bears fan status?

I'm a left-leaner that would vote for Ron Paul.

I rewrite the rules.

KinjaKahn
07-09-2007, 03:17 PM
I'm a left-leaner that would vote for Ron Paul.

I rewrite the rules.
I don't think you get it, when I get to heaven I will be lobbying God to add an 11th commandment specifically banning support for the Bears, the Vikings, and the Packers. If that doesn't work I will try convincing him that they are false Idols and urge him to rain down fire and brimstone on Soldier field, the Metrodome, and Lambeau field.

:)

Emmanuel
07-09-2007, 03:17 PM
But that has nothing really to do with what I was talking about regarding science.


But either way, I'm not sure I agree. "God proves Himself in the minds of His followers." So the existence of God is proven by someone believing in God? I don't see that logic. God either exists or he doesn't whether or not people believe in him. If God is up there and there are no Christians in the universe, does that mean God doesn't exist? Alternatively, if belief = truth, then I'm going unicorn hunting.
You'd be surprised (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0061092177/ref=sib_dp_pt/105-2801903-5100466#reader-link).

And what trick am I missing that I can't post pictures?

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 03:36 PM
I'm a left-leaner that would vote for Ron Paul.

I rewrite the rules.

you'd vote for a guy w/ 2 first names?

please God no!

KinjaKahn
07-09-2007, 03:40 PM
you'd vote for a guy w/ 2 first names?

please God no!
Bill and Clinton are both first names and I doubt that stopped you.

Tom Joad
07-09-2007, 03:49 PM
I don't think you get it, when I get to heaven I will be lobbying God to add an 11th commandment specifically banning support for the Bears, the Vikings, and the Packers. If that doesn't work I will try convincing him that they are false Idols and urge him to rain down fire and brimstone on Soldier field, the Metrodome, and Lambeau field.

:)

Are you a Lions fan?

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 03:54 PM
you'd vote for a guy w/ 2 first names?

please God no!

LOL...As of now, I'm still not registered...and I highly doubt Paul makes it through the primary...thus, I anticipate being unregistered come 2008....but I would vote for him. Fiscal responsibility would be a godsend....and I actually think he'd make a run at it....

Nixon's Head
07-09-2007, 04:04 PM
I don't think you get it, when I get to heaven I will be lobbying God to add an 11th commandment specifically banning support for the Bears, the Vikings, and the Packers. If that doesn't work I will try convincing him that they are false Idols and urge him to rain down fire and brimstone on Soldier field, the Metrodome, and Lambeau field.

:)If that's the case the Lions might actually win a few games.

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 04:28 PM
Bill and Clinton are both first names and I doubt that stopped you.


i wasnt old enough to vote in during during either of clintons presidential runs.



but clinton isnt as bad as Paul. who's last name is Paul?

IBC
07-09-2007, 04:37 PM
who's last name is Paul?
Ron's

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 04:38 PM
Ron's

You're a hard-core lib...Admit it...You love you some Ron Paul. It's hard not to like him.

I enjoyed his guest visit on Colbert.

Emmanuel
07-09-2007, 04:42 PM
i wasnt old enough to vote in during during either of clintons presidential runs.



but clinton isnt as bad as Paul. who's last name is Paul?
Link (http://www.nbalife.com/images_nba/chris_paul.jpg)

Seriously, is there a post limit I do not meet to post pictures?

IBC
07-09-2007, 04:42 PM
You're a hard-core lib...Admit it...You love you some Ron Paul. It's hard not to like him.

I enjoyed his guest visit on Colbert.
I don't hate him. He is by far the best running on that ticket.

Tom Joad
07-09-2007, 04:45 PM
but clinton isnt as bad as Paul. who's last name is Paul?

Mrs. Paul. Not a fan of fishsticks?

KinjaKahn
07-09-2007, 05:31 PM
i wasnt old enough to vote in during during either of clintons presidential runs.

That explains a lot.

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 05:32 PM
You're a hard-core lib...Admit it...You love you some Ron Paul. It's hard not to like him.

I enjoyed his guest visit on Colbert.

i think i dislike him via association, many of his followers are lunatics

i think he wants to eliminate income tax and institute a national sales tax, which to me is a crock. screws the elderly

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 05:33 PM
i think i dislike him via association, many of his followers are lunatics

i think he wants to eliminate income tax and institute a national sales tax, which to me is a crock. screws the elderly

Thanks.

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 05:33 PM
That explains a lot.

yes, i'm a young 27. clearly my inability to vote for clinton is what makes me blind.....


you're the logical one

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 05:34 PM
Thanks.

ronpaulrevoloution.com

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 05:41 PM
ronpaulrevoloution.com

Ummmm....Where's the crazy part? I have no sound...So if it is the video, I'll watch it later.

The page itself and the links just looks like normal political mumbo jumbo to me....

IBC
07-09-2007, 05:42 PM
That explains a lot.
Yeah, because younger people just don't get that abort gay babies platform. too young and ignorant.

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 05:46 PM
Ummmm....Where's the crazy part? I have no sound...So if it is the video, I'll watch it later.

The page itself and the links just looks like normal political mumbo jumbo to me....

the fact he wants a revoloution is crazy

i've never been to his site.

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 05:47 PM
the fact he wants a revoloution is crazy

i've never been to his site.

A group of Ron Paul fans in Arizona started putting up Ron Paul Revolution signs. The signs are showing up across the country, popping up in unlikely places such as at John McCain's official announcement of his candidacy. The folks behind the Ron Paul Revolution have no official connection to the campaign, and are not getting paid for their efforts. They are liberty-loving Americans who want to help get the word out about the only true peace-and-freedom Presidential candidate.



???

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 05:53 PM
???

see his supporters are nutz

or dumbos

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 05:58 PM
see his supporters are nutz

or dumbos

Thanks again.

But I'll try anything to restore some fiscal responsibility to this country...because anything else WILL end up with a lot of dead people. Period.

pnkpanther
07-09-2007, 06:29 PM
Thanks again.

But I'll try anything to restore some fiscal responsibility to this country...because anything else WILL end up with a lot of dead people. Period.

I'm all about fiscal responibility

i dont believe anyone's promises, a republicans less then Dems, as dems have been only ones to run in the black.

but i dont believe in a national sales tax.

swordfish
07-09-2007, 07:09 PM
The flat tax would be one of the best things going for America. The IRS can be abolished. Illegals, people working for cash, drug dealers, any tourist in America would all be paying taxes. You get reimbursed for necessities so old people are not as bad off as you say. You only pay taxes when you spend money. It would change the mentality of spend spend spend. There are no reasons to hide your money with fancy cpa and lawyer tactics. Of course some say it will slow down the economy. Are you kidding me, this is U.S.A, were long, strong and down to get the friction on.

KinjaKahn
07-09-2007, 07:17 PM
The flat tax would be one of the best things going for America. The IRS can be abolished. Illegals, people working for cash, drug dealers, any tourist in America would all be paying taxes. You get reimbursed for necessities so old people are not as bad off as you say. You only pay taxes when you spend money. It would change the mentality of spend spend spend. There are no reasons to hide your money with fancy cpa and lawyer tactics. Of course some say it will slow down the economy. Are you kidding me, this is U.S.A, were long, strong and down to get the friction on.

:) Ron Paul for President!

swordfish
07-09-2007, 07:23 PM
I am becoming a Ron Paul supporter. I always felt more libertarian than the current Republican party affords. This guy is refreshing and strong at the debate table.

Tom Joad
07-09-2007, 07:27 PM
The flat tax would be one of the best things going for America. The IRS can be abolished. Illegals, people working for cash, drug dealers, any tourist in America would all be paying taxes. You get reimbursed for necessities so old people are not as bad off as you say. You only pay taxes when you spend money. It would change the mentality of spend spend spend. There are no reasons to hide your money with fancy cpa and lawyer tactics. Of course some say it will slow down the economy. Are you kidding me, this is U.S.A, were long, strong and down to get the friction on.

I read that the worse thing to happen to our economy would be if people became more frugal. Perhaps, then, it wouldn't be such a great idea.

swordfish
07-09-2007, 07:31 PM
Our country cannot survive with the current rate of borrowing and debt. Sure we will prosper for awhile, but eventually this is going to kick us in the ass. Imagine the second depression. When the dollar totally loses its value who will go to work? Live it up boys I'm moving to the country. At least then I can grow my own vegetables while you city guys kill each other over a morsel.

Tom Joad
07-09-2007, 07:34 PM
Our country cannot survive with the current rate of borrowing and debt. Sure we will prosper for awhile, but eventually this is going to kick us in the ass. Imagine the second depression. When the dollar totally loses its value who will go to work? Live it up boys I'm moving to the country. At least then I can grow my own vegetables while you city guys kill each other over a morsel.

We'll just turn off Hee Haw until you acquiesce and send us food! :p

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 09:18 PM
I read that the worse thing to happen to our economy would be if people became more frugal. Perhaps, then, it wouldn't be such a great idea.



I disagree...and I've got over a century and a half to prove it. It would just be short-term pain...but significant long-term gain....Our current pace will be afforded for much longer due to the economic restraint of those before us....(Not you boomer whores)

Tom Joad
07-09-2007, 09:22 PM
I disagree...and I've got over a century and a half to prove it. It would just be short-term pain...but significant long-term gain....Our current pace will be afforded for much longer due to the economic restraint of those before us....(Not you boomer whores)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19389298/site/newsweek/

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 09:30 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19389298/site/newsweek/


Spending what has been saved is a lot different than spending what we never had....There is a different outcome for each approach....unless you believe that the world is a neverending supply of hummers, stucco and chocolate.

That link blows....and is left open-ended for a reason...because they can't dare predict the future...

But I'll go ahead and tap history to say that a penny saved is a penny earned and the grasshopper will lose in the end compared to the ant when winter comes....There's countless stories/fables/tales/etc throughout our world's history to prove that....and one day the chinaman's saving yin will not match our spending yang, if you try that route....Those guys are getting more and more whorish every day...Check out their stock market craziness...

No dice man. I'm too well consumed in my belief.

Tom Joad
07-09-2007, 09:37 PM
Spending what has been saved is a lot different than spending what we never had....There is a different outcome for each approach....unless you believe that the world is a neverending supply of hummers, stucco and chocolate.

That link blows....and is left open-ended for a reason...because they can't dare predict the future...

But I'll go ahead and tap history to say that a penny saved is a penny earned and the grasshopper will lose in the end compared to the ant when winter comes....There's countless stories/fables/tales/etc throughout our world's history to prove that....and one day the chinaman's saving yin will not match our spending yang, if you try that route....Those guys are getting more and more whorish every day...Check out their stock market craziness...

No dice man. I'm too well consumed in my belief.


I don't claim to have any exceptional knowledge of finance and the economy. I just remembered reading the story I posted.

Jiddy78
07-09-2007, 11:43 PM
I don't claim to have any exceptional knowledge of finance and the economy. I just remembered reading the story I posted.

Good...Then all that's left is for you to think of me when you have sex.

pnkpanther
07-10-2007, 10:36 AM
The flat tax would be one of the best things going for America. The IRS can be abolished. Illegals, people working for cash, drug dealers, any tourist in America would all be paying taxes. You get reimbursed for necessities so old people are not as bad off as you say. You only pay taxes when you spend money. It would change the mentality of spend spend spend. There are no reasons to hide your money with fancy cpa and lawyer tactics. Of course some say it will slow down the economy. Are you kidding me, this is U.S.A, were long, strong and down to get the friction on.


flat tax or national sales tax?