National Debt

[pukematrixx]

Sooooo...we've run the debt up wildly over the past few years stimulating the economy (not that we haven't run it up the last twenty years, just at a faster pace) and sorting health care. So, given what we're seeing in Europe with issues regarding sovereign's ability to pay, eventually we'll have to pay the piper when it comes to our debt, and unfortunately the world is still wildly consuming it -- I see a bubble on the horizon at some point, though I do believe the spending in the past few years to prop this economy up is warranted.

So the question is, how do we begin to reduce our debt?

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

Bring a shitolad of troops home from Iraq.

[hannitykillspuppies]

Sooooo...we've run the debt up wildly over the past few years stimulating the economy (not that we haven't run it up the last twenty years, just at a faster pace) and sorting health care. So, given what we're seeing in Europe with issues regarding sovereign's ability to pay, eventually we'll have to pay the piper when it comes to our debt, and unfortunately the world is still wildly consuming it -- I see a bubble on the horizon at some point, though I do believe the spending in the past few years to prop this economy up is warranted.

So the question is, how do we begin to reduce our debt?

no salary for senators and house reps. no pensions either.

[KinjaKahn]

Sooooo...we've run the debt up wildly over the past few years stimulating the economy (not that we haven't run it up the last twenty years, just at a faster pace) and sorting health care. So, given what we're seeing in Europe with issues regarding sovereign's ability to pay, eventually we'll have to pay the piper when it comes to our debt, and unfortunately the world is still wildly consuming it -- I see a bubble on the horizon at some point, though I do believe the spending in the past few years to prop this economy up is warranted.

So the question is, how do we begin to reduce our debt?There is no paying it down. Last I heard it at like $65000+ for each citizen once the full effect of Obamacare hits. With no jobs on the horizon... welfare rolls will climb, crime will climb, and the Answer is to keep outsourcing more jobs to Asia.

I've been whining about the bubble you finally see since right about the time IT jobs were outsourced to India and China, back before 9/11.

The simple facts, no spin. US standard of living cannot compete on the job front with China, India, or any other poor nation. Its a losing battle. Then throw in the trade disparities with Asian markets... like Korea, where they can export 10 bazillion cars to the US and only allow 5000 US made cars to compete there. Each little instance of "it doesn't matter our wealth is enormous", or "so what were #1 the best..." adds up to we're crashed and pretending were not. India and China together are 7 times the size of the US, think about that, where is their national wealth coming from, and where do they want their standard of living to get to?

Meanwhile the mint prints cash hand over fist and the value of the dollar is in shambles, comparing it to other currencies is stupid. Those currencies are intertwined with ours, while other nations fudge their currencies value. Just look where the physical commodities are going, and who can afford to buy them? We trade our wealth for a plastic TV that goes into the ground water in 5 years and our cash goes offshore, only to return as an interest bearing loan. Lady liberty has her robe pulled up, panties down, shes dropped the torch, grabbing her ankles, shaking her ass for Asia. At some point Asia will get horny and the bubble is going to wipe out the US beyond anything ever seen. At that point I would not be surprised if the country splits into sovereign regions, or be forced to merge with Canada and Mexico.

When rich people compete directly with poor the odds are the poor do not remain as poor, to what degree depends on how arrogant and risky the rich are.

We cannot afford Medicare, Social Security, Obamacare, Cap and Trade... Or a war in Iran, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, or going to mars... meanwhile a hollow headed douche bag is bumping Ludacris, while loading Fidel & Hugo's Ipod's full of his speeches in the Oval Office.

[Vegas]

First, I'll argue that we haven't stimulated the economy with all of the "stimulus" spending. It simply hasn't worked. We should have learned a long time ago that public spending is wasteful. The B.O. "stimulus" plan was a matter of throwing money at Democratic special interests. No surprise that it hasn't worked.

But as far as how we should fix the deficit.....let's start with a freeze on non-defense discretionary income and a shutting down of the unspent "stimulus" funds. That fixes only the shorter term issues. The bigger issue and the hardest to fix is long term unfunded entitlements.

If we don't do something about social security, medicare, and medicaid we're doomed. The future liabilities are off the charts. We need to start by raising retirement ages. We need to scale back benefits on medicare and especially the prescription drug benefit.

[Vegas]

The simple facts, no spin. US standard of living cannot compete on the job front with China, India, or any other poor nation. Its a losing battle. Then throw in the trade disparities with Asian markets... like Korea, where they can export 10 bazillion cars to the US and only allow 5000 US made cars to compete there. Each little instance of "it doesn't matter our wealth is enormous", or "so what were #1 the best..." adds up to we're crashed and pretending were not. India and China together are 7 times the size of the US, think about that, where is their national wealth coming from, and where do they want their standard of living to get to?


I disagree with you. American workers are higher paid because they are more productive. As long as we are more productive, we can maintain our standard of living.

[KinjaKahn]

I disagree with you. American workers are higher paid because they are more productive. As long as we are more productive, we can maintain our standard of living.Not when the jobs are leaving. Poverty is a factor of standard of living... On average yeah workers are more productive, but reducing the workers and increasing those that the workers support, and the standard will dive.

50 supporting 150
or
25 supporting 175?

China will surpass the US in wealth, and rest assured it wont happen without massive US wealth loss.

[Jiddy78]

Not when the jobs are leaving. Poverty is a factor of standard of living... On average yeah workers are more productive, but reducing the workers and increasing those that the workers support, and the standard will dive.

50 supporting 150
or
25 supporting 175?

China will surpass the US in wealth, and rest assured it wont happen without massive US wealth loss.

Oh sh*t...Now you'll get Vegas to bust out the "Wealth is not a zero sum game" on you. This should be interesting.

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

First, I'll argue that we haven't stimulated the economy with all of the "stimulus" spending. It simply hasn't worked. We should have learned a long time ago that public spending is wasteful. The B.O. "stimulus" plan was a matter of throwing money at Democratic special interests. No surprise that it hasn't worked.

But as far as how we should fix the deficit.....let's start with a freeze on non-defense discretionary income and a shutting down of the unspent "stimulus" funds. That fixes only the shorter term issues. The bigger issue and the hardest to fix is long term unfunded entitlements.

If we don't do something about social security, medicare, and medicaid we're doomed. The future liabilities are off the charts. We need to start by raising retirement ages. We need to scale back benefits on medicare and especially the prescription drug benefit.

What do people do who paid into the SS program their entire lives and rely on those benefits?

[Jiddy78]

What do people do who paid into the SS program their entire lives and rely on those benefits?

"You will all get nothing after we're done with it. And if we get any less of it, we'll charge you double for our 2nd home and RV's, because we're not just gonna give them away."

-Baby Boomers.

[Vegas]

Not when the jobs are leaving. Poverty is a factor of standard of living... On average yeah workers are more productive, but reducing the workers and increasing those that the workers support, and the standard will dive.

50 supporting 150
or
25 supporting 175?

China will surpass the US in wealth, and rest assured it wont happen without massive US wealth loss.

The whole "jobs are leaving" thing isn't very accurate. We've "lost" manufacturing jobs. So has China. As we get better capital equipment worldwide, there are fewer jobs in the manufacturing sector. China has actually "lost" more manufacturing jobs than we have. In certain areas, there are low skill jobs that go to offshore. That's not a completely bad thing. We should focus on higher skill, higher paying jobs.

[Vegas]

What do people do who paid into the SS program their entire lives and rely on those benefits?

When did I say that current recipients should have them taken away?

[KinjaKahn]

What do people do who paid into the SS program their entire lives and rely on those benefits?The answer is to not start socialist programs in the first place. Now that they've been started... you see the problem.

The self sustaining ideas behind SS were circumvented by aborting 35million taxpayers.

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

The answer is to not start socialist programs in the first place. Now that they've been started... you see the problem.

The self sustaining ideas behind SS were circumvented by aborting 35million taxpayers.

Not an option. I'm looking for a practical response rather than your particular ideological slant on things.

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

When did I say that current recipients should have them taken away?

You didn't.

[thrasymachus]

What do people do who paid into the SS program their entire lives and rely on those benefits?
Have it take place some time in the future so that those people can't complain they relied on those benefits. I don't think anyone wants the change to take effect today -- but the need for a change, at some point, seems evident.

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

Have it take place some time in the future so that those people can't complain they relied on those benefits. I don't think anyone wants the change to take effect today -- but the need for a change, at some point, seems evident.

I would support cutting in other areas before I would touch SS or Medicare. I understand someone somewhere down the line is probably going to get screwed. It may be me or the next generation down the line.

[KinjaKahn]

The whole "jobs are leaving" thing isn't very accurate. We've "lost" manufacturing jobs. So has China. As we get better capital equipment worldwide, there are fewer jobs in the manufacturing sector.If that's truly the case you would see more and more US made goods on store shelves, but you don't. US labor cant compete with Asian labor. Case in point... Autoworkers... $1500 a week... in US... $2500-$3500 a year in China... Quality is less the worker and much more the design.

China has actually "lost" more manufacturing jobs than we have. In certain areas, there are low skill jobs that go to offshore. That's not a completely bad thing.To start China expanded rapidly, due to great demand and lesser skilled workforce, as their workforce improved they could downsize. Like we did, push 50 workers to meet the same goals as they did with 75 workers.

We should focus on higher skill, higher paying jobs.Where do you get them? From the Nintendo Wii/Ipod age? Schools are failing, society is in free fall. Work ethic is virtually mythical. All and all, I think you're spinning this... unless you are suggesting in not any words, that you think it would be ok to have low skilled jobs hard to come by. If this is the case, the new poor will not go willingly to McDonalds or the farm. They cannot earn a living there.

[KinjaKahn]

Not an option. I'm looking for a practical response rather than your particular ideological slant on things.So open your wallet and pay for it. Soon as I figure out how to get in on your dime... I will. No complaining from you. You work harder to make more, so I can get more.

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

So open your wallet and pay for it. Soon as I figure out how to get in on your dime... I will. No complaining from you. You work harder to make more, so I can get more.

You want to deal with problems by saying "what if" or talking about practical solutions?

[KinjaKahn]

You want to deal with problems by saying "what if" or talking about practical solutions?There is no what if... that is the most practical solution. Pay. Bush tried to bring a solution to SS going forward... it was shot down by partisans with scare tactics.

[hannitykillspuppies]

The answer is to not start socialist programs in the first place. Now that they've been started... you see the problem.

The self sustaining ideas behind SS were circumvented by aborting 35million taxpayers.
if only godwin read this board.

[KinjaKahn]

if only godwin read this board.Is the think tank for those desiring to take part with their thoughts or for those to sit there wishing someone else would come talk for them? Bring something Ashley.

Other than this brilliant solution no salary for senators and house reps. no pensions either.

[Matt]

The whole "jobs are leaving" thing isn't very accurate. We've "lost" manufacturing jobs. So has China. As we get better capital equipment worldwide, there are fewer jobs in the manufacturing sector. China has actually "lost" more manufacturing jobs than we have. In certain areas, there are low skill jobs that go to offshore. That's not a completely bad thing. We should focus on higher skill, higher paying jobs.

This begs the question, what happens to the vast sea of Americans who aren't in the higher skilled category ?

[Vegas]

This begs the question, what happens to the vast sea of Americans who aren't in the higher skilled category ?

What would you have them do? Go on the public dole?

[Matt]

What would you have them do? Go on the public dole?

You can't answer a question with a question.

[Vegas]

You can't answer a question with a question.

I just did.

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

What would you have them do? Go on the public dole?

I think the answer is to have an economy where those who are physically able can find gainful employment of some kind regardless of vocational background or skill level.

[Matt]

I just did.

No you didn't. You just asked a question that related to the original question in an attempt to a) skirt the issue, and b) put me on the spot. Both failures. Of course, you could just answer the question that you begged in the first place...

[Vegas]

I think the answer is to have an economy where those who are physically able can find gainful employment of some kind.

And who's in charge of that? You want a planned economy like in the USSR?

[Vegas]

No you didn't. You just asked a question that related to the original question in an attempt to a) skirt the issue, and b) put me on the spot. Both failures. Of course, you could just answer the question that you begged in the first place...

I'm not skirting the issue. The job market is constantly changing. Should we have saved the millions of agriculture jobs that were "lost" over the past 100 years? Would we be better off? Or should people adapt to a changing economy and changing job market? Should they learn new job skills on their own? Or you just want them on the dole?

[Matt]

I'm not skirting the issue. The job market is constantly changing. Should we have saved the millions of agriculture jobs that were "lost" over the past 100 years? Would we be better off? Or should people adapt to a changing economy and changing job market? Should they learn new job skills on their own? Or you just want them on the dole?

You are quiet fond of questions but not so fond of answers. How about answering my one question before I answer your myriad?

[Vegas]

You are quiet fond of questions but not so fond of answers. How about answering my one question before I answer your myriad?

Ever heard of the Socratic method? My answer is there if you care to really look.

[Jesse Helms' Ghost]

Sooooo...we've run the debt up wildly over the past few years stimulating the economy (not that we haven't run it up the last twenty years, just at a faster pace) and sorting health care. So, given what we're seeing in Europe with issues regarding sovereign's ability to pay, eventually we'll have to pay the piper when it comes to our debt, and unfortunately the world is still wildly consuming it -- I see a bubble on the horizon at some point, though I do believe the spending in the past few years to prop this economy up is warranted.

So the question is, how do we begin to reduce our debt? GOP: Cut spending on social/domestic programs.

Libs: Cut spending on military establishment, take away corporate tax breaks, and stick it to the rich....'rich' being defined as those making more than $150K.

See how easy that was??

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

GOP: Cut spending on social/domestic programs.

Libs: Cut spending on military establishment, take away corporate tax breaks, and stick it to the rich....'rich' being defined as those making more than $150K.

See how easy that was??

He didn't ask for your spin on the political side of things. Remember this is the think tank.

[Jesse Helms' Ghost]

He didn't ask for your spin on the political side of things. Remember this is the think tank.
Remember your chatter on 'missed points' and quarters???

Welp, where's my money??

[FatDumbOxycontinAbuser]

GOP: Cut spending on social/domestic programs.

Libs: Cut spending on military establishment, take away corporate tax breaks, and stick it to the rich....'rich' being defined as those making more than $150K.

See how easy that was??

And I haven't seen any cutting of social/domestic programs by the GOP in quite some time. Not quite sure where you are getting that.

[Matt]

Ever heard of the Socratic method? My answer is there if you care to really look.

I have. It is a common method of teaching in Italian schools. You aren't using the Socratic method by asking questions and not answering them, you are simply skirting an issue that you have no answer for.

[Jesse Helms' Ghost]

I have. It is a common method of teaching in Italian schools. You aren't using the Socratic method by asking questions and not answering them, you are simply skirting an issue that you have no answer for. Interesting.

So Athens, Italy is basking in intelligence...versus say Sicily, Greece????

Meanwhile, i found this.

....pretty straight forward regarding teaching methods and who's making the best of them.

The United States law school method of teaching is certainly the most effective because the Law School preparation in the U.S. is more complete than in Italy.
http://www.bright2010.uni-muenchen.de/conference/working_groups/essays1/d_palombo_milan_6.pdf

[Roy Munson]

This begs the question, what happens to the vast sea of Americans who aren't in the higher skilled category ?
The world needs ditch diggers too.

[Roy Munson]

The simple facts, no spin. US standard of living cannot compete on the job front with China, India, or any other poor nation. Its a losing battle.

With all the jobs in those countries, the standard of living is increasing to the point of outsourcing becoming equal the cost of US employees. The only difference being that companies need a local presence in these countries to sell their goods. We have one team of developers in india that put out 1/10th of the work of one US employee, but they're still not a waste of money because they allow us to sell products there. Its a cost we have to pay to do business, but the real work is still done here. Sure, its done by fewer employees, but it would have been that way anyway. Reducing cost = increased shareholder value, and we know thats all that counts.

[Roy Munson]

Remember your chatter on 'missed points' and quarters???

Welp, where's my money??
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/6/28/633502095110658970-Facepalm.jpg

[Matt]

Interesting.

So Athens, Italy is basking in intelligence...versus say Sicily, Greece????

Meanwhile, i found this.

....pretty straight forward regarding teaching methods and who's making the best of them.

The United States law school method of teaching is certainly the most effective because the Law School preparation in the U.S. is more complete than in Italy.
http://www.bright2010.uni-muenchen.de/conference/working_groups/essays1/d_palombo_milan_6.pdf

You've out-densed yourself again.

[Matt]

The world needs ditch diggers too.

Indeed, Mr. Trump, it does.

[pnkpanther]

When business cycle resumes its uptick, revenues will increase. And we're getting close to that.

Prior to FY2010, Iraq and Afghanistan didnt count against our defecit. They were funded by emergency appropriations bill (which has less oversight, basically, easier to push more money through).....this isnt a slimey schdeme cooked up by the GOP for my lefty friends, Lyndon Johnson did same for early years in Vietnam. In addition to the negative comment (pushing more through) it's also makes it possible to fund items faster which is a good thing in these circumstances.

Jobs are coming back. Dont give me unemployment rates, it's a fudged number, I havent liked it. Disenfranchised workers are now seeking work, increasing size of the work force and therefore unemployemnt rates. But jobs are coming and more than 2/3 of the jobs have been in the private sector, which is good.

On top of that, you have to look at your biggest expenditures and fix those: SS, Medicare, Military, and Interest expense, those are the largest 4 items.

SS-Raise retirement age and cut benefits.
Medicare-I have no suggestions
Military-We have largest navy in the world. Our Navy is larger then countries 2-9 combined. Maybe we can shrink that a bit? We still have bases in Japan and Germany, do we need those?