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Vegas
06-15-2007, 12:33 PM
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010212

BY JOSEPH LIEBERMAN

I recently returned from Iraq and four other countries in the Middle East, my first trip to the region since December. In the intervening five months, almost everything about the American war effort in Baghdad has changed, with a new coalition military commander, Gen. David Petraeus; a new U.S. ambassador, Ryan Crocker; the introduction, at last, of new troops; and most important of all, a bold, new counterinsurgency strategy.

The question of course is--is it working? Here in Washington, advocates of retreat insist with absolute certainty that it is not, seizing upon every suicide bombing and American casualty as proof positive that the U.S. has failed in Iraq, and that it is time to get out.

In Baghdad, however, discussions with the talented Americans responsible for leading this fight are more balanced, more hopeful and, above all, more strategic in their focus--fixated not just on the headline or loss of the day, but on the larger stakes in this struggle, beginning with who our enemies are in Iraq. The officials I met in Baghdad said that 90% of suicide bombings in Iraq today are the work of non-Iraqi, al Qaeda terrorists. In fact, al Qaeda's leaders have repeatedly said that Iraq is the central front of their global war against us. That is why it is nonsensical for anyone to claim that the war in Iraq can be separated from the war against al Qaeda--and why a U.S. pullout, under fire, would represent an epic victory for al Qaeda, as significant as their attacks on 9/11.

Some of my colleagues in Washington claim we can fight al Qaeda in Iraq while disengaging from the sectarian violence there. Not so, say our commanders in Baghdad, who point out that the crux of al Qaeda's strategy is to spark Iraqi civil war.

Al Qaeda is launching spectacular terrorist bombings in Iraq, such as the despicable attack on the Golden Mosque in Samarra this week, to try to provoke sectarian violence. Its obvious aim is to use Sunni-Shia bloodshed to collapse the Iraqi government and create a failed state in the heart of the Middle East, radicalizing the region and providing a base from which to launch terrorist attacks against the West.

Facts on the ground also compel us to recognize that Iran is doing everything in its power to drive us out of Iraq, including providing substantive support, training and sophisticated explosive devices to insurgents who are murdering American soldiers. Iran has initiated a deadly military confrontation with us, from bases in Iran, which we ignore at our peril, and at the peril of our allies throughout the Middle East.

The precipitous withdrawal of U.S. forces would not only throw open large parts of Iraq to domination by the radical regime in Tehran, it would also send an unmistakable message to the entire Middle East--from Lebanon to Gaza to the Persian Gulf where Iranian agents are threatening our allies--that Iran is ascendant there, and America is in retreat. One Arab leader told me during my trip that he is extremely concerned about Tehran's nuclear ambitions, but that he doubted America's staying power in the region and our political will to protect his country from Iranian retaliation over the long term. Abandoning Iraq now would substantiate precisely these gathering fears across the Middle East that the U.S. is becoming an unreliable ally.

That is why--as terrible as the continuing human cost of fighting this war in Iraq is--the human cost of losing it would be even greater.

Gen. Petraeus and other U.S. officials in Iraq emphasize that it is still too soon to draw hard judgments about the success of our new security strategy--but during my visit I saw hopeful signs of progress. Consider Anbar province, Iraq's heart of darkness for most of the past four years. When I last visited Anbar in December, the U.S. military would not allow me to visit the provincial capital, Ramadi, because it was too dangerous. Anbar was one of al Qaeda's major strongholds in Iraq and the region where the majority of American casualties were occurring. A few months earlier, the Marine Corps chief of intelligence in Iraq had written off the entire province as "lost," while the Iraq Study Group described the situation there as "deteriorating."

When I returned to Anbar on this trip, however, the security environment had undergone a dramatic reversal. Attacks on U.S. troops there have dropped from an average of 30 to 35 a day a few months ago to less than one a day now, according to Col. John Charlton, commander of the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division, headquartered in Ramadi. Whereas six months ago only half of Ramadi's 23 tribes were cooperating with the coalition, all have now been persuaded to join an anti-al Qaeda alliance. One of Ramadi's leading sheikhs told me: "A rifle pointed at an American soldier is a rifle pointed at an Iraqi."

The recent U.S. experience in Anbar also rebuts the bromide that the new security plan is doomed to fail because there is no "military" solution for Iraq. In fact, no one believes there is a purely "military" solution for Iraq. But the presence of U.S. forces is critical not just to ensuring basic security, but to a much broader spectrum of diplomatic, political and economic missions--which are being carried out today in Iraq under Gen. Petraeus's counterinsurgency strategy.

In Anbar, for example, the U.S. military has been essential to the formation and survival of the tribal alliance against al Qaeda, simultaneously holding together an otherwise fractious group of Sunni Arab leaders through deft diplomacy, while establishing a political bridge between them and the Shia-dominated government in Baghdad. "This is a continuous effort," Col. Charlton said. "We meet with the sheikhs every single day and at every single level."

In Baghdad, U.S. forces have cut in half the number of Iraqi deaths from sectarian violence since the surge began in February. They have also been making critical improvements in governance, basic services and commercial activity at the grassroots level.
On Haifa Street, for instance, where there was bloody fighting not so long ago, the 2nd "Black Jack" Brigade of our First Cavalry Division, under the command of a typically impressive American colonel, Bryan Roberts, has not only retaken the neighborhood from insurgents, but is working with the local population to revamp the electrical grid and sewer system, renovate schools and clinics, and create an "economic safe zone" where businesses can reopen. Indeed, of the brigade's five "lines of operations," only one is strictly military. That Iraq reality makes pure fiction of the argument heard in Washington that the surge will fail because it is only "military."

Some argue that the new strategy is failing because, despite gains in Baghdad and Anbar, violence has increased elsewhere in the country, such as Diyala province. This gets things backwards: Our troops have succeeded in improving security conditions in precisely those parts of Iraq where the "surge" has focused. Al Qaeda has shifted its operations to places like Diyala in large measure because we have made progress in pushing them out of Anbar and Baghdad. The question now is, do we consolidate and build on the successes that the new strategy has achieved, keeping al Qaeda on the run, or do we abandon them?

To be sure, there are still daunting challenges ahead. Iraqi political leaders, in particular, need to step forward and urgently work through difficult political questions, whose resolution is necessary for national reconciliation and, as I told them, continuing American support.

These necessary legislative compromises would be difficult to accomplish in any political system, including peaceful, long-established democracies--as the recent performance of our own Congress reminds us. Nonetheless, Iraqi leaders are struggling against enormous odds to make progress, and told me they expect to pass at least some of the key benchmark bills this summer. It is critical that they do so.

Here, too, however, a little perspective is useful. While benchmarks are critically important, American soldiers are not fighting in Iraq today only so that Iraqis can pass a law to share oil revenues. They are fighting because a failed state in the heart of the Middle East, overrun by al Qaeda and Iran, would be a catastrophe for American national security and our safety here at home. They are fighting al Qaeda and agents of Iran in order to create the stability in Iraq that will allow its government to take over, to achieve the national reconciliation that will enable them to pass the oil law and other benchmark legislation.

I returned from Iraq grateful for the progress I saw and painfully aware of the difficult problems that remain ahead. But I also returned with a renewed understanding of how important it is that we not abandon Iraq to al Qaeda and Iran, so long as victory there is still possible.

And I conclude from my visit that victory is still possible in Iraq--thanks to the Iraqi majority that desperately wants a better life, and because of the courage, compassion and competence of the extraordinary soldiers and statesmen who are carrying the fight there, starting with Gen. Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker. The question now is, will we politicians in Washington rise to match their leadership, sacrifices and understanding of what is on the line for us in Iraq--or will we betray them, and along with them, America's future security?

IBC
06-15-2007, 12:36 PM
Some stats would be nice. However, the "someone told me" stats he uses, they just don't jibe with trhe actual stats. One more American servicemen killed per day than before February this year. That blood is on your hands Joe.

LSU
06-15-2007, 12:37 PM
I would put a lot more faith in a politician when he or she writes a letter saying, "Wow. I thought one way for a long time. But damn, after seeing this, I have to take the complete opposite viewpoint."


Otherwise, it's the same old people saying the same old thing, mainly because they're all too proud to admit that they could have taken the wrong stance on something...unless it puts them in a better position to win an election, e.g., Edwards, Hillary, etc. Then it's just bullshit. Their change in opinion may be the right way to go, but the timing reeks.

So really, this is just Joe saying the same old shit on a different day.

When a pro-war person comes out and says, "Well, that's it, this is fucked," then that will mean something or when an anti-war person says, "Holy shit, it's working," that's when it will mean something.

Until then.

Yawn.

hannitykillspuppies
06-15-2007, 12:38 PM
[url]

In Baghdad, however, discussions with the talented Americans responsible for leading this fight are more balanced, more hopeful and, above all, more strategic in their focus--fixated not just on the headline or loss of the day, but on the larger stakes in this struggle, beginning with who our enemies are in Iraq. The officials I met in Baghdad said that 90% of suicide bombings in Iraq today are the work of non-Iraqi, al Qaeda terrorists. In fact, al Qaeda's leaders have repeatedly said that Iraq is the central front of their global war against us. That is why it is nonsensical for anyone to claim that the war in Iraq can be separated from the war against al Qaeda--and why a U.S. pullout, under fire, would represent an epic victory for al Qaeda, as significant as their attacks on 9/11.

what's nonsensical is trying to link the two together.

IBC
06-15-2007, 12:39 PM
When a pro-war person comes out and says, "Well, that's it, this is fucked," then that will mean something or when an anti-war person says, "Holy shit, it's working," that's when it will mean something.





We have a had a whole lot of the former, and none of the latter.

That said, I think we just need to give it time. You know damn well we will hear the same bullshit in September.

pnkpanther
06-15-2007, 12:47 PM
of course iraq is center, thats where we are...

they'd follow us anywhere we went in the mideast

they'd probably attack us if we tired to blow up israel

IBC
06-15-2007, 01:21 PM
Vegas, this frustrates me. Can you show me anything that says its getting better besides the same old BS from guys that have been wrong time and time again? I did. I quoted a stat that showed it getting worse. Anything to actually prove it better? Just more of the same I guess? What will it take for you to say this isn't working? What will it take?

Hotpapa666
06-16-2007, 05:31 AM
Vegas, this frustrates me. Can you show me anything that says its getting better besides the same old BS from guys that have been wrong time and time again? I did. I quoted a stat that showed it getting worse. Anything to actually prove it better? Just more of the same I guess? What will it take for you to say this isn't working? What will it take?

I'll answer for him. No. And the reason their can be no time-line and no benchmarks because their aren't any. The country is fucked beyond belief. As soon as the US leaves the Civil War will really ramp up, there will be chaos for a decade and Iran will emerge as the overwhelmingly most powerful force in the region. Or we will stay there for fucking ever trying to build a nation out of a few oil fields, three groups of people who hate one another and a third world economic base. Sounds just fucking wonderful to me.

As for LSU's comments. I'm not a politician but, I supported this war at the begining. When it was sold to me because, in my neivity, I believed the case that the government presented. Everything was pushed along so quickly that nothing was scrutinized. Now things are different, we were lied to and the lies have been exposed. I was wrong to support anything that this crooked administration told me.

Ed Who?
06-16-2007, 11:55 AM
Vegas, this frustrates me. Can you show me anything that says its getting better besides the same old BS from guys that have been wrong time and time again? I did. I quoted a stat that showed it getting worse. Anything to actually prove it better? Just more of the same I guess? What will it take for you to say this isn't working? What will it take?

It's amazing that the guys who are in charge would actually be the ones that know what's going on. How some prick sitting in his 8th Avenue corner office has any idea of what's going on in Baghdad is beyond me. Obviously because the Islamists who feed them anti-American information are so-much-more right with their observations than the ones who support the current Administration's efforts.

hannitykillspuppies
06-16-2007, 12:32 PM
It's amazing that the guys who are in charge would actually be the ones that know what's going on. How some prick sitting in his 8th Avenue corner office has any idea of what's going on in Baghdad is beyond me. Obviously because the Islamists who feed them anti-American information are so-much-more right with their observations than the ones who support the current Administration's efforts.
so you're denying that more people are dieing?

Cat in the Hat
06-16-2007, 04:36 PM
I'll answer for him. No. And the reason their can be no time-line and no benchmarks because their aren't any. The country is fucked beyond belief. As soon as the US leaves the Civil War will really ramp up, there will be chaos for a decade and Iran will emerge as the overwhelmingly most powerful force in the region. Or we will stay there for fucking ever trying to build a nation out of a few oil fields, three groups of people who hate one another and a third world economic base. Sounds just fucking wonderful to me.

As for LSU's comments. I'm not a politician but, I supported this war at the begining. When it was sold to me because, in my neivity, I believed the case that the government presented. Everything was pushed along so quickly that nothing was scrutinized. Now things are different, we were lied to and the lies have been exposed. I was wrong to support anything that this crooked administration told me.

Hot, I think you've come closest to hitting this on the head (at least from all that I understand about the situation in Iraq). This has been a politician's war from the get go. G.W. and his puppeteers have been pulling the wool over our eyes for many years now. If we could have let the military go in and do it's thing we might not be in the mess we're in now. The United States Armed Forces are the best in the world! We have all the technology to fight an intelligent war and cause the least amount of casualties and we continue to take our orders from a bunch of suits who would turn to dust if they got dirty.

As far as I'm concerned we need to turn Iraq into a police state for a while to allow the groups to meet and set their cards on the table as well as help control the bastards causing the trouble from getting into the nation in the first place.

The folks in the Middle East are the craziest folks I've ever heard of on this planet. They've been killing themselves and everyone else for thousands of years. What says these folks are going to stop anytime soon, whether they have a democratic government or a tyrannical gov't? It'll take way too much time and money to stick around long enough to set the ball rolling in the direction that would bring peace to that area.

Also, concerning Iran, the US will have no problem getting supporters once Iran tips it's hand that they have nukes and would not think twice about using them. The rest of the world will put the kibosh on that in a heartbeat (same as in N. Korea with Kim Jong Ill in command).

Ed Who?
06-16-2007, 06:27 PM
so you're denying that more people are dieing?

Do troops and civilians ever die in war? I thought you needed a 3rd grade education to use this Interwebtube thing that AlBore invented.

And with this, I see why Ann Coulter goes off her rocker all the time. How in the hell are we supposed to wage a war if life isn't sacrificed? I know, we can do what f'ing Clinton did, and sit on our ass and make $50 Million off of letting the shitstorm build steam. Pass the shit off onto the next Administration, that's the Democrats way of doing business.

Tom Joad
06-16-2007, 08:18 PM
Do troops and civilians ever die in war? I thought you needed a 3rd grade education to use this Interwebtube thing that AlBore invented.

And with this, I see why Ann Coulter goes off her rocker all the time. How in the hell are we supposed to wage a war if life isn't sacrificed? I know, we can do what f'ing Clinton did, and sit on our ass and make $50 Million off of letting the shitstorm build steam. Pass the shit off onto the next Administration, that's the Democrats way of doing business.

Another puzzling dichotomy: Conservatives are pro-life...until birth.

ryr8828
06-16-2007, 08:59 PM
Another puzzling dichotomy: Conservatives are pro-life...until birth.


That's absurd and you know it.

It implies that conservatives are for killing children, which we are not.

Why are liberals so easyminded about killing unborn babies, yet would fight tooth and nail to protect a convicted murderer or murdering dictator?

Or terrorist?

hannitykillspuppies
06-16-2007, 09:09 PM
Do troops and civilians ever die in war? I thought you needed a 3rd grade education to use this Interwebtube thing that AlBore invented.

And with this, I see why Ann Coulter goes off her rocker all the time. How in the hell are we supposed to wage a war if life isn't sacrificed? I know, we can do what f'ing Clinton did, and sit on our ass and make $50 Million off of letting the shitstorm build steam. Pass the shit off onto the next Administration, that's the Democrats way of doing business.yes they do. but one would assume that a surge working would lead to less american troops and less civilians dieing and a decrease in terrorist bombings. the opposite has happened, yet we are told the surge is working. doesn't make any sense. to me anyway. maybe to you.

hannitykillspuppies
06-16-2007, 09:12 PM
That's absurd and you know it.

It implies that conservatives are for killing children, which we are not.

Why are liberals so easyminded about killing unborn babies, yet would fight tooth and nail to protect a convicted murderer or murdering dictator?

Or terrorist?

can't have it both ways ryr, both parties are hypocritical when it comes to these matters. which is one of many reasons why anyone who votes strictly on party lines is a fucking moron.

Tom Joad
06-16-2007, 09:28 PM
That's absurd and you know it.

It implies that conservatives are for killing children, which we are not.Why are liberals so easyminded about killing unborn babies, yet would fight tooth and nail to protect a convicted murderer or murdering dictator?

Or terrorist?

That's not the implication at all. Republicans are always touting the value of life, born and unborn. And yet, they are more worried about building and stockpiling weapons to take away lives and trying to deny help to keep people alive (healthcare, programs for mothers and children).

ryr8828
06-16-2007, 09:59 PM
That's not the implication at all. Republicans are always touting the value of life, born and unborn. And yet, they are more worried about building and stockpiling weapons to take away lives and trying to deny help to keep people alive (healthcare, programs for mothers and children).

The weapons are for protecting us and our children from aggression. The main purpose of the government is defense, not welfare handouts and income redistribution.

There are plenty of programs for children and mothers in poverty. It seems to have developed into an unbroken cycle. If you expect them to live as well as someone who works 60 hours a week, well I don't see that happening.

Tom Joad
06-16-2007, 10:10 PM
The weapons are for protecting us and our children from aggression. The main purpose of the government is defense, not welfare handouts and income redistribution.

There are plenty of programs for children and mothers in poverty. It seems to have developed into an unbroken cycle. If you expect them to live as well as someone who works 60 hours a week, well I don't see that happening.

The cycle is a cycle of reactionism versus being proactive with a solution. If you want to stop welfare and overcrowded prisons, do you know what would do that? Education would do that! A child that grows up in poverty has an astronomical chance of remaining in poverty. I'm not arguing for re-distribution of wealth, I'm arguing for equality of opportunity (which, no matter how red in the face you get, will never be proven to exist in this country). Programs like Head Start are great, but aren't enough. Teach low-income families trades so that they can get better jobs. The better jobs mean a better standard of living and a greater chance that the parents will want the SAME or BETTER for their children and that the desire may actually be realized. If you face the problem now, you don't have to pay for it for the rest of the person's life (either through welfare or to house them in prison).

As for the weapons, we have enough. We could bomb the shit out of any country we wanted...and yet, we continue the build up (are you sure illegal aliens are the only type of aliens Republicans are taking on?)...:rolleyes:

ryr8828
06-16-2007, 10:14 PM
The cycle is a cycle of reactionism versus being proactive with a solution. If you want to stop welfare and overcrowded prisons, do you know what would do that? Education would do that! A child that grows up in poverty has an astronomical chance of remaining in poverty. I'm not arguing for re-distribution of wealth, I'm arguing for equality of opportunity (which, no matter how red in the face you get, will never be proven to exist in this country). Programs like Head Start are great, but aren't enough. Teach low-income families trades so that they can get better jobs. The better jobs mean a better standard of living and a greater chance that the parents will want the SAME or BETTER for their children and that the desire may actually be realized. If you face the problem now, you don't have to pay for it for the rest of the person's life (either through welfare or to house them in prison).

As for the weapons, we have enough. We could bomb the shit out of any country we wanted...and yet, we continue the build up (are you sure illegal aliens are the only type of aliens Republicans are taking on?)...:rolleyes:

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Like most people who think like you do, you think that programs and money are the cure all. You believe that everyone is disadvantaged because they don't have an opportunity.
This is the land of opportunity. There are training programs everywhere. You can't force people to use them.

Tom Joad
06-16-2007, 10:16 PM
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Like most people who think like you do, you think that programs and money are the cure all. You believe that everyone is disadvantaged because they don't have an opportunity.
This is the land of opportunity. There are training programs everywhere. You can't force people to use them.

There are a lot of training programs, but not everyone knows about them. It could be something as simple as directing people to the right place. A parent I talked to didn't realize that her son could get vocational training after he left high school (and she's a nurse so it's not like she's "milking the system"). Sometimes, people just need to be shown the way.

I challenge every conservative on this site to read something by Ruby Payne. Here's her website: http://www.ahaprocess.com/

Ed Who?
06-16-2007, 10:17 PM
yes they do. but one would assume that a surge working would lead to less american troops and less civilians dieing and a decrease in terrorist bombings. the opposite has happened, yet we are told the surge is working. doesn't make any sense. to me anyway. maybe to you.

Horseshit. The more we fight, the more that the insurgents are going to take it to us.

You Dems refuse to believe that Iraq is a frontline to this war. Do you think these are actually people that will lay down their weapons once they leave? No, they're going to go in and take the government, which is an infant at this moment.

They're on the run, run out of Afghanistan, and wanting to consolidate power between Iran and Syria.

hannitykillspuppies
06-16-2007, 10:37 PM
Horseshit. The more we fight, the more that the insurgents are going to take it to us.

You Dems refuse to believe that Iraq is a frontline to this war. Do you think these are actually people that will lay down their weapons once they leave? No, they're going to go in and take the government, which is an infant at this moment.

They're on the run, run out of Afghanistan, and wanting to consolidate power between Iran and Syria.

oh, we're fighting more now. bwahahahahahahahaha.

believe? i believe we've been told iraq is a frontline to this war. these people with these weapons that will or will not be laid down we're not in iraq prior to our invasion. these people were scared shitless of the government that was previously in place. so was iran.

on the run, right. they're scared shitless.

and again, anyone with any proof that syria and/or iran helped saddam move his wmds out of iraq, i'd love to hear from them.

Ed Who?
06-16-2007, 11:39 PM
on the run, right. they're scared shitless.


Look at the insurgent's gameplan. They aren't fighting a war, they're fighting a potshot attack. They know that they can't win an all-out war against us. They're whole gameplan is to use the peacenik brigade to their advantage. The only way for them to win is for us to declare the war a failure and pull out. Name one way they win without us moving out.

I'd hate to think what would have happened had the Allied Forces used today's Liberal's definition of high casualties.

hannitykillspuppies
06-17-2007, 12:00 PM
Look at the insurgent's gameplan. They aren't fighting a war, they're fighting a potshot attack. They know that they can't win an all-out war against us. They're whole gameplan is to use the peacenik brigade to their advantage. The only way for them to win is for us to declare the war a failure and pull out. Name one way they win without us moving out.

I'd hate to think what would have happened had the Allied Forces used today's Liberal's definition of high casualties.

you said they are on the run. the increasing body count doesn't seem to agree with that notion. does staying equate to us winning?

allied forces. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

IBC
06-17-2007, 10:51 PM
You fellas believe what you have to believe to help you sleep at night. Some of this is borderline 9/11 conspiracy crap. There has never been a damn bit of proof that has even hinted that the weapons are in Syria. And the crap you post about poison gas is laughable at best. We probably could have smoked that poison and been fine. Ridiculous.